73 by RC Clinton Soule wrote:RC and forum, in view of Deb's input on the McCain election post we know that the 7th is the canidate if you aren't in favor of him, where the first is the canidate you like. As RC likes Obama for President, the first becomes Obama. Venus as lord of the Ascendant and Obama is in the 5th(election), and in Essential Fall in Virgo. Also the Asc. ruled by Venus is in Accidental Detriment as lord of the first. Clinton Soule Is that what Deb said? (just checked, I guess it is.) I follow a different method in the way I read my own charts in that I always use 7th unless I have a relationship with the quesited. But in any event, I never said I I LIKED Obama! I didn't say who I was rooting for. RC
74 by cosmicdolphin guys/gals. whoever has Anthony Louis'book and i think Sylvia de Long's .. there are a quite few charts on individuals getting elected. books.google.com omitted election charts from the book sadly and I cannot get permissions to post the actual charts without getting Deb into a trouble. if you have those 2 books, look it up.. querents use non-related people to them as object of interest in horary charts. cheers CD
75 by yuzuru I am sorry if someone has already said that, but I am too lazy right now to see every post. As far as I understand, RC is not backing neither side, so she wants to be neutral. So, Obama gest the 7th house. As Deb have said, it is hard to see an horary answering a mundane question. Even worse if the person has not immediate and strong feelings about it ! But if I take the 7th, mars rules obama. Moon (the people) will apply to sextile mars, Obama wins. Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
76 by Deb Hi Yuzuru This is what I posted on the other thread: The 7th is the one you are against, or trying to hunt/catch. I'm not sure that it is the one that you are neutral to - but who asks about someone else when the relationship is neutral, anyway? I can't think of a situation where this would happen, because a dispassionate relationship would mean the querent wouldn't bother to ask the question, surely? In practice, the querent is either set against or concerned about the one that is being asked about. If the querent identifies with, or is concerned about the other person, then unless there is a clearly identified relationship to one of the other houses (brother, friend, pet, etc); it's usual to use the ascendant to signify the person being asked about. Lilly explains this in the first section of his horary volume. The 7th house is the hunted or fugitive but not, say, the missing person we are concerned about. This is purely academic of course, because I am very wary of these kinds of political horary charts. There may well be modern authors who have explained things differently, but I believe that what I have written here is consistent from the traditional perspective. If there is evidence to the contrary then - of course - please let me know! Deb
77 by yuzuru As Deb have said, it is hard to see an horary answering a mundane question What I meant was what you have said many times, that is hard to see a good horary in this mundane themes. The question seldon is rooted. Recently Chris Warnock got a good prediction of when the writer?s strike would end. He wrote that, the most important factor was to have a good question, asked by a professional who was really involved in the issue, and had much to loose in it. Many claim that every question can be asked. My experience shows that not every question were born the same. Meu blog de astrologia (em portugues) http://yuzuru.wordpress.com My blog of astrology (in english) http://episthemologie.wordpress.com
78 by Deb Yes of course, any question can be asked, but what we want with horary is a good, strong, emotional investment and a clear mental focus on the question, to get the kind of radical question that hits right into the heart of the matter. Chris Warnock?s point is a good one, and I?m glad you made it. Despite my general dislike of these charts, I actually do believe that horary can be used for mundane or political matters, or for 3rd-party horaries. But it takes a special set of circumstances to create a radical question, and if the querent is also being the astrologer too, then they need to have a great deal of experience and give the chart complete commitment. Lilly?s chart about Presbytery is a classic example.
79 by RC Well, I really didn't want to reveal my preferences on the election because most people here in the US at least, have such strong feelings both ways. But I am rooting for McCain/Palin. I am very much against Obama for many reasons and thus when I asked the question, those feelings were strong. So all you Obama fans hate me now. But I feel its important if we're going to get a fair analysis of the question assuming its radical as Deb had talked about earlier. I know some like to look at the Soltice Points so I ran a chart on that. Its interesting that Mars (he) is going to conjoin with Uranus's Soltice Point in 3 months from the date of this question which would make it about November, the time of the actual election! Its been my own experience that Uranus is not always a *good* surprise so this may not be good for Obama. And its occurring in his 12th house. Venus and Mercury (McCain (& Palin?) ) are moving to trine the moon's Soltice Point which is conjunct the fixed star Alcyone. BO's ASC is moving to oppose it. Soltice Points on inside wheel: [/img]
80 by Clinton Soule But if I take the 7th, mars rules obama. Moon (the people) will apply to sextile mars, Obama wins. Yuzuru The 7th only represents Obama from Deb's great insight. In my Bush Election horary in 2004 I used the 5th of the 10th, althought the 10th was also positively aspected. Part of the problem here is that after Charles II was beheaded in England democratic elections for the House of Commons in England began. But in prior Europe, Asia and the Arabic Penensula had little democracy, so no elections on horary data is available. Another poster on either this question or McCain election pointed out Anthony Louis has several Election horarys in his books. I refuse to beleive this horary is not radical any more than if a thousand horary artists were betting on a horse race or ball game, all choosing the same winner, should they just disregard thier findings as one may have asked the question before another making it obselete? The problem in the Obama question horary here, using the 7th, is using either the 11th for elections or the 10th for the office, the Prohibition aspect or Frustration hampers both analysis points of veiw as it's Saturn ruled. Saturn would be cjt by the Sun but the Moon(critical degree) will cjt Saturn first and Lilly says: "38th Aphorism: Have special regard tot he Significators, and whether any frustration or prohibition be before the perfect aspect: the Planet frustrating describes the party or cause hindering the matter demanded. " (CA, p. 110), "Prohibition is when two planets that signify the thing demanded are applying to an aspect, and before they can come to a true aspect, another planet interposes either his body or aspect, so that thereby the matter propounded is hindered and retarded." "FRUSTRATION: Lilly used "frustration" to refer to problems with the operation of a conjunction: "when a swift Planet would corporally join with a more ponderous, but before they can come to a Conjunction, the more weighty Planet is joined to another, and so the Conjunction of the first is frustrated." Frustration interferes with the perfection of the matter. Many writers consider Abscission and Frustration to be synonymous so that when a planet is about to form aspects with two other planets, the aspect that perfects first causes an abscission of light that frustrates the influence of the second aspect. In Lilly's definition, a faster planet is about to conjoin a slower one which happens to conjoin a different planet before the faster one can reach it." Now that is not positve for either the Election nor the office of President ruled by Saturn! Clinton Soule
81 by Clinton Soule whoever has Anthony Louis'book and i think Sylvia de Long's .. there are a quite few charts on individuals getting elected. books.google.com omitted election charts from the book sadly and I cannot get permissions to post the actual charts without getting Deb into a trouble. if you have those 2 books, look it up.. querents use non-related people to them as object of interest in horary charts. CosmicDolphin That book 'Horary Astrology Plain & Simple' by Anthony Louis explains that in this book he updated his findings using more traditional methods. One can veiw his only Election horary on pp. 51-54. It would be interesting of which book of Sylvia De Long has Elections within the texts. One factor should be heavily weighed on Louis's example, and that is the house of the quesited. He asked about the Primary, and that to me is the 5th of the 10th for the incumbent Mayor. He has 0 degrees and 11 minutes on 5th from the tenth. Being that is so close and Venus is on that cusp(five degree rule) I think that the 29 degrees from the previous sign is actually on that cusp. It makes greater logic than the chart he shows using Koch; and Regio will alter that for sure. In Lilly's Ca, the Table of Contents, there are No sections on Elections under the 5th house. Yet his section on the Tenth has many on position such as King or related. As RC has now said that Obama is more of a foe, the 7th according to Deb, is our house representing Obama. The Sun will Cjt Saturn, and Saturn rules the election. The Sun rules Obama's Tenth for President. But the Frustration of the Moon making the cjt before Sun and Saturn Perfect is a Prohibition and Abscision Of Light according to Lilly. This is indeed a tough horary for us to answer! Clinton Soule
82 by RC Hi Clinton and others. Perhaps we should focus attention on McCain & Obama's natal charts. I just posted one at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... 2338#32338 RC
83 by Clinton Soule RC, I'm aware that in Lilly's time there was a real Problem with the man who invented Placidus houses; to the point Lilly used Regio instead of Placidus as I've recently read. But try calculating your horary with Regio or Koch and notice no longer is Pisces intercepted. Now she is on the 11th cusp(Obama's election). Someone tell me *is it the first aspect to the Lord of the quesited or can the Lord of the quesited aspect another planet bringing about perfection?* And I'm not ruling out the tenth of Obama here: as that is more in line with Lilly's methoth on people in office. But I have a Bush Election horary that supports the idea of the election verses the tenth position argument from 2004 that is very valid by orbs, etc.
84 by kali Hi RC: Just received Frawley's horary book and there were two important thoughts he expressed important to this discussion. First he said, "Most answers can be found more quickly and more reliably from a horary chart than from the study of the birthchart..." Second, he has in the 'seventh house question' chapter a section on politics. Now, he studied under Barclay who did not beleive such questions were appropriate to horary. But his attitude was while learning you can ask about every trivial matter that crosses your mind. Once mastered, Frawley says, horary is best used sparingly. What's important is to make judgements, keep asking questions of the chart and look back at your judgements. When wrong pull the chart apart until you have seen why. I love this statement... "It is also easy to give up, thinking that the chart is beyond you. You will learn nothing that way." kali