I was flipping through some of my old charts when I came across a horary asked in 1990. "Will Money Endure?" The question was absurd in 1990 and could still seem a little off the beam, but I have decided to put it up for discussion in the Mundane section in light of the current bank crises and failing of financial institutes.
The intriguing point that I want to show is the simple fact that the question was asked 18 years ago, i.e. One Saros Cycle earlier. The Moon's South Node in this chart is 17LE05. The Moon's South Node now is 15LE52!! The total Solar eclipse of July 22.1990 is a member of the Saros Cycle 10S, as is the most current Solar Eclipse of August 1. 2008.

Money is ruled by the 2nd house. The cusp of the 2nd house is 12SC00. In the initiating chart of the 10S Saros Cycle on March 17. 1179, Mars was 12SC42 . As shown in the Saros Series 10S thread, when the initiating chart of 1179 was cast for Wall Street, New York, the MC of this chart is 11SC17!! This is conjunct the 2nd house of the horary!

The 2nd house of the horary is ruled by Mars, who is located at 28SG07. This is interesting because our current Pluto made it's 2nd station and turned direct at 28SG29. The station refrains from an exact conjunction with the lord of the 2nd in the horary chart. I said that my initial question of 1990 could have seemed a little off beam because it seems obvious that we will have some sort of monetary system in the future. Money will endure - but Pluto's current station refraining 22' from the position of Mars in the horary seems to represent the largest threat to the monetary system yet.

Hi Andrew

I said that my initial question of 1990 could have seemed a little off beam because it seems obvious that we will have some sort of monetary system in the future.

In that sort of case, do you treat it as a slightly different question? - "Will money endure in its present form?".

I mentioned in the 'Dark matter' thread about money serving different functions - medium of exchange and store of value. I believe bankers actually treat it as having three or four functions, the others being 'unit of account' and (a sub-division of that) 'standard of deferred payment'.

I'm dubious about assigning money to a single house. 'Store of value' I can see as 2nd house, but 'medium of exchange' and 'unit of account' seem more like the 3rd.

Personally, I think of it as having another function as well, as 'denominator of debt'. This gets a bit tricky, because in one sense money always represents debt, but this aspect of it seems to me to belong to the 8th - I think I would assign the creation of money there too.

I don't remember which particular crisis we were in 18 years ago, but they are usually triggered by too much debt - when a question is about a financial crisis I would assume it was ruled by the 8th (but then, I've never tried to interpret a horary).

Malcolm

Hi there

The intriguing point that I want to show is the simple fact that the question was asked 18 years ago, i.e. One Saros Cycle earlier. The Moon's South Node in this chart is 17LE05. The Moon's South Node now is 15LE52!! The total Solar eclipse of July 22.1990

Hi there, in astronomy there are Eclipse Years as a measuring unit, ie the duration of time it takes for Eclipses to return to the same node. 19 of these years is almost identical to the Saros cycle ( 19 eclipse years is 6585.78 days, Saros cycle is 6585.32 days). So since only one cycle has elapsed the nodes have to be similar

regards
mike c

OOOPS! Just noticed I messed that last post up completely!

An eclipse year is the duration of time it takes for the Sun to return to the same lunar node. Since eclipses happen when the Sun/Moon is conjunct the nodes, and since 19 whole Eclipse years are almost identical with the length of the Saros cycles. then, after one Saros cycle has passed the Nodes will have not moved very much.

Apologies for this technical aside which seems fairly pointless now!
regards
mike

A Metonic cycle is 19 years. It is easy to get the terms mixed up, Mike. No problem. That is what the forum is about- working out the concepts.

As you say Malcolm, money could be a 2nd house thing - but notice how the Sun and Moon are in the 4th of the horary chart. I observed the luminaries but didn't comment there position. The 4th house is substance, too, yes?

Andrew J. Bevan wrote:A Metonic cycle is 19 years. It is easy to get the terms mixed up, Mike. No problem. That is what the forum is about- working out the concepts.

As you say Malcolm, money could be a 2nd house thing - but notice how the Sun and Moon are in the 4th of the horary chart. I observed the luminaries but didn't comment their position. The 4th house is substance, too, yes?

Yes it is Andrew, the Fourth House is strong in the chart you posted from 1990, and it shows the Dragon's Head at 17-Aquarius along with the luminaries conjoined also in the Fourth ~ a strong position calling attention to this crisis now.

In many ways, you produced a predictive horary chart for the future, an obscure, but valid method of forecasting. Also, did you see the Pars Fortuna at 22-Libra in your chart? This is the point where transiting Mercury turned retrgrade in late September.

Also, did you see the Pars Fortuna at 22-Libra in your chart? This is the point where transiting Mercury turned retrgrade in late September.

Oh, this is a very good observation! Excellent!!

We should take note and then carefully consider that this is a nocturnal chart and that the calculation for Fortuna is not turned. For those who change the calculation for a nocturnal chart, the point becomes the Part of Spirit and not Fortuna. Both meanings should be considered because the question is whether money is a 'substantial' or a 'viritual' measure of value. With this I mean that 'Bank notes' are not the same as the 'real thing' and money is due to fluctations and is issued upon the promise, honor and guarantee of the government (Spirit).

Another point I wanted by showing this chart is the mere fact that if you have any odd questions or charts you don't quite understand - save them! Put them in a file somewhere so that they be recovered at a later date, even if does take 20 years!!

the point becomes the Part of Spirit and not Fortuna. Both meanings should be considered because the question is whether money is a 'substantial' or a 'viritual' measure of value. With this I mean that 'Bank notes' are not the same as the 'real thing' and money is due to fluctations and is issued upon the promise, honor and guarantee of the government (Spirit).

Hi Andrew

I had started to reply to your previous post last weekend, but before I'd posted it I realised that my initial reaction needed modifying - but then my mind went off in a completely different direction and I never finished it (I don't know why but this Mercury retrograde has been much more 'archetypal' in the way it has affected me than any I've known).

My initial reaction was that I don't see any direct connection between money and the 4th; as you say the 4th is very much 'substance', but money is all symbol. In fact economists regard it as a positive disadvantage if whatever is used as money has any intrinsic value!

However the roots of money undoubtedly do go down into the foundations of society, so I would guess that the presence of the luminaries in the 4th is reflecting that; as you said, it seems obvious that we will have some sort of monetary system in the future.

The question of whether "money is a 'substantial' or a 'virtual' measure of value" goes to the heart of the current problems: in its different functions the value of money depends on different factors in the real economy. As a medium of exchange its value depends on the relationship between all the things that are available to sell and the demand for those things; as a store of value, on the other hand, its value depends on the society's capacity for future production. So, for example, grain in a warehouse would primarily affect its value as medium of exchange, but crops growing in a field would connect to its function as a store of value.

As long as the money supply grows and shrinks in the same sort of pattern as the real economy there isn't a problem, even if it is a bit out of phase - then money is substantial. But when the real economy needs to shrink but the money supply keeps growing then part of it becomes virtual.

When I mentioned previously (in the Dark Matter thread I think) about Mercury representing money as 'medium of exchange', and Venus representing it as 'store of value', I suggested that as long as they were moving in the same direction things were alright, but problems arose when they moved in different directions. I've changed my view on that slightly; as long as one of them is moving forward everything is fine because it can switch between investment and consumption. But occasionally they are both retrograde at the same time and then stresses build up which, sooner or later, have to break out.

I've been wondering for the last twenty years or so how monetary authorities (if they adopted a system that allowed them to do it) could know when it was necessary to reduce the supply of money. I've always concluded that it would need more wisdom than governments have ever shown, and more data gathering than would be healthy.

But having thought about the Mercury/Venus dance over the last couple of weeks, I think it would probably be good enough to base it directly on that - allowing it to expand when one planet is direct and reducing it whenever both are retrograde at the same time - without trying to match it to the real economy (which would initially be out of tune with it but could quite quickly adapt to that rhythm).

I'm not expecting that to be adopted any time soon! In any case, as long as cash exists in a form that keeps its value even when it ceases to circulate, the authorities will never be able to make interest rates negative, so it's doubly academic.

Malcolm