Hello everybody,

This is my first time posting here. I study mainly Hellenistic astrology, but have been trying to learn horary astrology on and off for a couple of years now. I know the technicalities of it, but when it comes to actually getting the chart to say something to me, my delineation falls apart.

The question I'm asking is "does this person have HIV."
The lord of the 1st is in the 1st house, so that would be me, but he (Mars) is also the lord of the 6th house of illness. I don't like his position in Scorpio, because of the association with the private parts.

The lord of the 7th is also in the first, which makes no sense to me.

The general significator for the question should be the moon (right?), and is in the 6th house of illness, and is in an opposition to Mercury, who is retrograde. Mercury is the lord of the 8th house.

Ok, so I'm not looking for a free reading. I know what the houses mean, what the planets mean, and what the ascendant lord, and descendant lord signify. But beyond that, I can't seem to pull a whole picture of the scenario together.

If anybody would like to perhaps give me a clue about which planet to look at, or any aspect to look at, or lords of terms [these are the Egyptian terms] I would appreciate it.

The houses are whole sign, the blue Moon is the lot of Fortune, and the blue Sun is the Lot of Spirit.

Thanks all,

David

And I really meant to use Hephastio's bounds instead of the Egyptian set, but my software reset itself to the Egyptian set.

Hi, there and welcome.

I'm just confused about something- who is the person you are asking about? From what I gather, it is not you. We should know how you are related to this person to be able to determine which house he/he gets ie where is his Ascendant. Or is that person the Querent (the one asking the question)? if it is so, than I'm not confused any more!

Thanks for including a copy of the chart in your post. I know that there are astrologers who use the whole sign approach for horary (Rob Hand being one of them), but I have to admit that this method is so alien to my own approach to horary that I also find it difficult to relate to this chart. I have some comments to make but bear in mind that I am definitely a Lilly-style horary practitioner, and I feel lost without the emphasis upon quadrant cusps and aspectual orbs. For example, I find it difficult to relate to the idea of the 1st-ruler Mars being in the 1st house when it is so obviously above the horizon, (hence my mind is filling up with the meaning of 1st-ruler Mars in the 12th house). We all have our ritualistic approaches, and I?m not sure that I can shift my perspective enough to be of much help here. However, I think a good start to the discussion is to clarify how the signification relates to the person this question is being asked about:

The question I'm asking is "does this person have HIV."

You have identified yourself as the querent, so you take the ascendant and its ruler to identify you. So then what is the relationship between yourself and the person you are asking the question about? If it is someone you are in a relationship with, or hope to be in a relationship with, then that person will be signified by the 7th house and its ruler, and we need to make use of turned (derived) houses specifically for them, whilst using the radical (normal) houses for general analysis and to consider how this situation relates to you. If you are asking for a friend then that person is 11th house, etc.

Another point you need to consider is whether it is wise to proceed with this judgement at all. The ascendant is in the 28th degree of Scorpio, and traditionally we are warned against proceeding with charts that have such a late degree on the ascendant. Of all the ?considerations before judgement? the late-ascendant warning is one that I take very seriously. I don?t think I have ever seen any good come out of the judgement of a chart with a late ascendant like this. I wonder if anyone else can contradict that by their own experiences? That doesn?t necessarily mean that the chart is unreliable, but it is offering a warning that you might regret getting involved in this difficult matter.

I honestly can't make heads or tails out of this chart
The chart does not appear radical, i.e. the question is asked in the hour of Jupiter with Scorpio ascending. But with Venus. L6, on the ascendant in her own terms and being disposed by Mars in his own sign and face, I would like to give the absent person (represented by the first house) the benefit of the doubt.

The Moon applies to the opposition of Mercury who the ruler of the 10th and located in the 11th, he receiving Luna in her face, so I hope that there would be some relief and that the rumours were proven wrong.

Regarding health questions like this, where it is possible to learn the answer with a high degree of accuracy from a blood test, I think it's best to go with the medical option.

Thanks everybody,

I am asking about an ex who wants to "try things again." Perhaps I should be asking whether I should go for that or not. The blood work would not turn up any results until 6 months, and I've got some trust issues with this person. The YiJing insisted that I give it another chance, so against my better judgment, I am.

Anyway, on to horary....

I will ask the question again later, when the Universe wants to give me an answer.

Regardless of that, I still don't know what to make of the lord of the 6th in the 12th, as it would be using Regiomontanus cusps. Does this just mean that it would take a while to show up?

Deb, I should've taken your workshop.

I can't make sense of the Regiomontanus cusps, but I may have to get used to that if I'm going to try to learn horary.

The 6th and 7th house, both being Taurus, doesn't register with me.

I'm going to just trash this chart for now, and ask the question again later, or have him ask me the question, jot down the time, and then cast a chart for it. Perhaps at that point, the Universe will be more willing to answer, and maybe I will see the picture more clearly.

Could the reason why predictive work is easy for me, while horary is not, be because I've asked my own questions?

Thanks all

David

marsrising wrote:
Regardless of that, I still don't know what to make of the lord of the 6th in the 12th, as it would be using Regiomontanus cusps. Does this just mean that it would take a while to show up?

You will decide what to do with this chart of course but, regardless of this chart, generally speaking- if it is you who is asking the question ( the Querent) and if the question is about your (ex)boyfriend (the Quesited), than he is presented by the 7th house which becomes his turned (derived) 1st. The 7th house belongs to our "significant others", lovers, ex lovers, persons we are interested in, public enemies, opponents (say in trials), partners etc. Therefore, your (Rx) Descendant (ie the cusp of the house representing the Quesited) is his (turned) Ascendant. And that's where you start counting the houses from ( The ruler of the cusp of the 7th is, of course, his significator). It's the same principle as in the Natal astrology basically.

Right. I get the technical stuff, but it just doesn't come together for me. Turning the chart yields similar results--sort of.

I think that I need to actively post in other threads for a while, before I get this, and I think that Deb's opinion that it may just not be a good horary chart is probably correct. I did not really put that much intent into casting the chart.

Turning this chart, the lord of his 6th is in his 7th, along with Mars, lord of his 7th. But then, turning the chart, his 6th house contains some interesting stuff, with the Mercury Rx opposing the Moon in the un-turned 6th.

I still don't have enough experience yet to really get what that means.

I'll try actively posting on the other threads, if I can find places to.

Thanks again

Hi marsrising, he is shown by 7th house and his ruler is Venus in Scorpio, your sign, showing that he desperately wants you back But I mean really desperately because Venus is also debilitatated there Now, Venus is also in the derived 6th of his (possible) illness, while at the same time ruling the radix 6th of illness. That is a certain indication but not enough to judge that he has HIV, I think. Actually, I think he doesn't, because there'd have to be some other "critical" indication, like a link to the Moon, an aspect with a malefic planet etc. Hope this helps, keep us posted.

Yap, maybe it's confusing to see that you get the same 6th/12th axis again only now they switch places (he get your 12th for the house of his health). I wouldn't even dare guessing any answers here for I know so little about reading such charts but I think it would be important to know what kind of wheel you have decided to use (I'm completely blind for this type of the wheel ) that is, of course, if you decide to proceed reading this chart in the first place. Though, this late Ascendant is something to bare in mind!

Andrew, I?m not sure why you said that the hour-ruler is Saturn. From what I can tell it is Mars.

The blood work would not turn up any results until 6 months, and I've got some trust issues with this person. The YiJing insisted that I give it another chance, so against my better judgment, I am.

Can I ask if the relationship has already resumed? That would make sense of the late ascendant ? suggesting that it is too late in the day for you to be asking the question now anyway, because the matter has already moved past the point where the horary is going to make a difference. Also, some astrologers see a late ascendant as a sign that the question has already been answered, which might relate to your dealings with the YiJIng. But it doesn?t seem right to me that you should be acting *against* your better judgement. These sorts of divinatory techniques ought to clarify our better judgement so that we feel more confident about the decisions we make ? it doesn?t sound like that?s the case here.

Regardless of that, I still don't know what to make of the lord of the 6th in the 12th, as it would be using Regiomontanus cusps. Does this just mean that it would take a while to show up?

If we are looking at the chart ?Lilly-style? then Venus, being within 5 degrees of the ascendant, would be considered a 1st house (or turned 7th house) planet, not a radical 12th (turned 6th house) planet. I have put a copy of the chart with Regio cusps below. It is interesting how the chart changes, but the themes remain the same. I always expect the house position of the Moon and 1st-ruler to reflect the issues of concern. Here the Moon is on the cusp of the 5th house, so prominently reflecting concerns over the sexual/love making element of the relationship. The 1st-ruler Mars is close to the 12th house cusp, relating to your fear over the other person?s health (turned 6th). This also relates to ?trust issues? and the potential for self-undoing: we know that this person is not your enemy, but there is still a great deal of concern over whether there might be a secret enemy in this relationship.

Personally, I think the chart gives lots of reasons for you to keep your wits about you with this person. The Moon is moving to the opposition of the debilitated Mercury (corrupted information / lies) which is placed on the 11th cusp (sexual practices of the other person) and rules the radical 8th house. This could be reflecting your own fear of contacting a potentially deadly disease through sexual contact, but since the Moon then moves on to the square of an afflicted Jupiter (in a place where Jupiter is in fall and the Moon is in detriment), I see nothing in the chart that says you should override your better judgement and place your trust in this person.

Venus, describing the partner, is in its own face and also in its sign of detriment ? so there is no sense of personal integrity being described there. It is also on the square of Neptune, which I think describes this person as obviously attractive and charming, but capable of presenting whatever image/false reality suits the moment. I?m concerned that this, let?s say less-than-noble Venus, is both your 7th and 6th house ruler. Through contact with this person, you may come into contact with your own health issues, but I honestly don?t know whether the chart describes these as real or imagined. The only thing that seems clear to me, is that this chart does not give a reason for you to put your trust issues aside. I think your instincts are spot on there.

Sorry that I can only give you my opinions on this chart as they relate to my own approach, because I?m not sure that?s the appropriate thing to do. I?m torn between accepting that horary can work just as well with the whole-sign approach, when my experience has shown that the traditional authors like Bonatti and Lilly were so right to put an emphasis on the degrees of house cusps within the signs and the meaning given to the application to cusps. The whole-sign approach screws up a lot of the philosophy of medieval and Renaissance horary, which interferes with the mechanics of many useful, practical techniques. For example, looking at whether the house cusp falls in the beginning, middle and end of the signs tells us such a lot about the stage things are at, and whether major changes have recently happened or are about to occur. Personally I think you are better off learning horary in the style of the one traditional authority who demonstrated his practical expertise without doubt (Lilly), and then you can make your own adjustments and personal alterations towards Hellenistic techniques when you know what you are doing with it. That would be my advice.

But one tip for ?seeing the picture? in the chart ? start off by looking to find an element of the chart that relates to something already known. You could begin by looking in detail at the significator of the partner, gathering all the information you can on how this fits with the partner?s physical or psychological description as you know it. Keep the focus narrow and don?t try to take in the whole chart at once. This is a little like scrying ?focussing on one narrow spot and building up a detailed profile of the partner helps to fire up the brain?s instinct to turn symbols into pictures. Take as much details as you can, and then move on to the next significator. This is exactly what you?ll be doing as you get more experienced, except that ?like everything ? it all gets easier over time. I often think that learning to judge a horary chart is a little like learning to drive a car. At first it seems so hard as we have to consciously think about each step separately, but with practice the process becomes so automatic and instinctual that we barely notice what we are doing.

Good luck!