Tom wrote: Later still we obtained a similarly well researched rectification for McCain to 9:06:40 am and now, in my mind, a questionable birth certificate that shows 6:25 PM.

Tom

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Tom :

Do you have the link showing McCain's rectification ?

RC

Hi Folks,

For anyone interested in looking at this using traditional methods here is an article from Maria Mateus which compares the prospects of the Presidential candidates using the techniques of hellenistic astrology (Ptolemy), Arabic ( Abu Ali Al Khayyat), and 17th century ( Wlliam Lilly).
She doesn't specfically predict an Obama win but McCain doesn't seem to have much of a chance using any of the methods discussed by Mateus. Mind you that is all based on the 9.00am birth time for him!

http://www.academyofastrology.org/tradi ... ition1.pdf

Then again if Tom is right and McCain defies the polls that is surely a shot in the arm for the technique of Morinus!

One point worth making is that Obama does have an extremely bright, benefic star on his MC. (Rigil Kentaurus, aka Alpha Centuri, Bungula, Toliman = the foot of the Centaur) using the 7.24 chart.

According to Ptolemy it is of the nature of Venus and Jupiter; While Vivian Robson states ''It gives beneficence, friends, refinement and a position of honor.''

Its actually the 3rd brightest star in the sky. Its not used by later medieval or renaissance astrologers like Bonatti, Lilly or Morin because it became invisible from Europe after the classical era due to precession. However, it is visible in Hawaii where Obama was born. Personally, I dont have much faith in projecting stars way outside the ecliptic like this but I thought I would give it a mention for those that do.

In terms of mythology the Chiron myth is actually based on the constellation of Centaurus rather than the insignificant piece of astro-debris that has recently grabbed all the astrological focus. Chiron was of course a teacher, hunter and healer and reputedly the most benefic of the otherwise war like Centaurs. In the myth it was Zeus himself who immortalised Chiron by placing him in the stars of the constellation of Centaurus. I leave others to speculate on whether Obama is the 'healer' America needs at this moment......

There are four Royal stars of Persia, Regulus, Antares, Aldebaran, and Fomalhaut.

Actually that is a long held astrological myth. I will be posting up a thread on the traditional part of the forum soon to demonstrate why this commonly held belief is incorrect. To be fair though just about every astrologer writing in this area has perpetuated the myth that Regulus, Antares, Aldebaran and Folmalhaut were the royal stars of ancient Persia.

RC wrote:

Theo wrote: I like your work & insights on his progressions and fully agree. I ran his progressions two years ago for this time (and further) and agree with your findings RC. .

Hi Theo:

How did you run his progressions two years ago for that time?

The birth certificate was only just published this year.

Just curious,

RC

I had Obama's chart since 2004 when he was running for a senate seat.

Tom wrote:

Caveat for Obama fans. Lilly does not count Fomalhaut as a Royal star for these purposes. Morin does. There are four Royal stars of Persia, Regulus, Antares, Aldebaran, and Fomalhaut.
Tom

Hi Tom:
Obama doesn't have Fomalhaut. Is that a typo? He does have Rigel Kentaurus on his midheaven. Is that one of the Royal stars?

Janus' fixed star editor states of that placement:

Janus fixed stars editor wrote: Midheaven conjunct Rigel Kentaurus 0?07'
Rigel Kentaurus, in Centaurus, is the "foot of the centaur," sometimes called Toliman, "grapevine shoot." It has also been referred to as Bungula. It can give rise to spoiled relationships with the female sex. Well placed, it can help to gain a position of honour and power.

I haven't finished yet with a comparison of McCain's two birth times, but I too am suspicious of the 6:25 PM time even with the evidence the other poster had published. As I said, my father's birth certificate even had the wrong day! So that is not always reliable.

With the two huge events for 1967, there is nothing I've found so far in McCain's chart for that time that points to those tragedies. The minor tragedies I've experienced in my own life were clearly marked and predictable. They were but a bump on a gnat's behind compared to McCain's!


RC

Hi RC,

He does have Rigel Kentaurus on his midheaven. Is that one of the Royal stars?

No its not one of the four royal stars. However, any bright fixed star on the MC could be highly significant. Rigel Kentaurus is, as I stated previously, the third brightest star in the sky and of the nature of Venus and Jupiter according to Ptolemy. Its integrally tied into the myth of Chiron.

Take some time to read this article by Deb Houlding on the constellation of Centaurus to get a better understanding of the star:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/centaur.html

Regarding the bright fixed stars William Lilly states:

The Fixed stars give great gifts, and elevate even from poverty to extreme height of fortune, the seven planets do not do so??
William Lilly, Christian Astrology, 1647; p.621

.
Rigel Kentaurus on BO's MC may have been one of the contributors to his great success so far. After all, he went from a state senator who most people didn't know to winner of the nomination as first black to do so and is bigger than any rock star right now, world wide. I don't know anything about royal stars.

BUT....

I still do not see how, Uranus in detriment entering the MC degree, 28' this year in a strong Square from the 7th is going to cinch the election for him. Its a nasty malefic, in detriment and a square aspect. Squares aren't always bad, I know. They bring about things through greater effort, etc. But when it is a malefic involved coming from a bad placement ...

The only thing that may make this different is the fact that Uranus is his co-Ruler.

RC

I observed, from the way you speak and deliberate your sides of opinion and prediction about this election, you guys are already affected by politics and seems not healthy as a discussion with the correct absoluteness of the charts representation. Its quite apparent that you have you're own personal sides or party and thus linked to what your prediction and interprewtation of the chart.

Tom :

Do you have the link showing McCain's rectification ?

RC

It was done by Dr. H and I believe it can be found on his website in the members section:

http://www.regulus-astrology.com/

Hi Tom:
Obama doesn't have Fomalhaut.

Fomalhaut is in early Pisces, and I think I had the wrong chart in mind when I wrote that. It's probably just a brain misfire on my part. I'm on the road and don't have the necessary data. The other possibility is that it shows up in a return, and I just transplanted it. Sorry for the error.

Actually that is a long held astrological myth.

It may well be, but it doesn't change anything. The method either works or it doesn't. The status or lack of is irrelevant.

For anyone interested in looking at this using traditional methods here is an article from Maria Mateus which compares the prospects of the Presidential candidates using the techniques of hellenistic astrology (Ptolemy), Arabic ( Abu Ali Al Khayyat), and 17th century ( Wlliam Lilly).
She doesn't specfically predict an Obama win but McCain doesn't seem to have much of a chance using any of the methods discussed by Mateus.

And this highlights the problem as I first presented it when I wrote:

That being said this is astrology so we can be pretty sure that there is more than one way to determine such elevation. I know of two: one is the so-called "releasing of spirit" used by Hellenists (that I will leave to others), and then there is the method outlined by Lilly and Morin using prominent fixed stars.

So let's regroup and instead of looking at technique look at the theory that is behind the technique or more correctly, behind all the techniques. The nativity must show (somehow) that the native is destined for bigger things. What is going on here is the emphasis of the "somehow" at the expense of the theory. Now theory is useless without practice, but in order to understand the astrology we need to understand the theory.

If it is not "promised" in the chart, it isn't going to happen. If this were not true, then all we would need to do is to master electional astrology and make our life any way we feel like having it, just by showing up at the right place at the right time. But even having it "promised (I prefer the word "potential")" in the chart isn't a guarantee it will happen. Other developmental factors have to be in place at the right time. If there is nothing in the primary directions or returns that indicate an elevation, then it doesn't matter where the stars or or the spirit is released. There will be no elevation.

So the method I mentioned is one whereby the promise or potential is shown by the placement of certain fixed stars. If we stick to the method, then we don't use any other stars no matter what kind of glory we think they indicate. If we do permit other stars we are out of one method and into another. This is fine, we just need to be clear about it.

The differences in results between the 9:00 am birth time and the 9:06:40 birth time for McCain are minimal when it comes to the stars, but the 6 minutes and 40 seconds change the hit dates of the directions significantly. We need only imagine the difference between that and the 6:25 PM birth time.

The 6 minutes does little to change anything with solar and lunar returns, but the 6:25 PM time changes those radically.

The situation is similar with Obama. The 7:24 and 7:54 times do nothing in terms of the positions of the stars, but they would have an effect on returns and directions.

So using the rules as set out by Lilly and Morin, I concluded that Obama does not have the requisite "Royal Chart" and if either 9:00 AM or 9:06 AM are correct, McCain does albeit barely. If the 6:25 PM chart is correct, McCain still has a Royal star on the MC. So he has the edge in charts.

If the times are wrong or the method really stinks, then none of the above matters. But regardless of whether or not the method is wrong, I think the theory is correct. The elevation to high office should be in the natal chart somewhere, and it needs to be triggered somehow. It will take quite a bit of work to determine a usually reliable method. A good starting point might be to take Dr. H's data and look to see how many of the American Presidents have "Royal" charts or had their spirits released zodiacally when elected. I'm sure it isn't 100%.

Tom

Note: All subsequent charts for Biden, McCain and Palin have been progressed to the equivalent of Nov 5, 8:30 am, CST. All measurements are made in right ascension (the true body position of the planets and of course the way in which horoscope chart angles are always measured).

OBAMA

Nov 5, 8:30 am, CST for Obama.

Using the 7:24 pm birth chart:

Obama's natal ascendant in Honolulu has a right ascension of 320?30'. His progressed Moon at 4:30 am, Nov 5, 2008 AHST, (8:30 AM, CST) will be at 318?29'. Transit Jup/Ura midpoint will be at 319?37'.

Obama's precession corrected anlunar located to Chicago (where he will probably be election day and the day after) begins Oct 26 at 0:49:18, CST. The right ascension of the MC being 049?42'.

At 8:30 am, Nov 5, transit Jupiter will be at 289?04', trine the MC. The W.Pt (90 degrees from the MC in right ascension) of the anlunar is 319?42'. Transit Jupiter/Uranus midpoint will be 319?37'. The Zenith of the anlunar is 060?40'. Transit Sun/Venus midpoint will be on the Nadir at 060?57'.

From the progression of this anlunar it appears that he may not receive a concession call from his opponent until the morning of Nov 5th.

Progressing the anlunar to Nov 5 at:

8:30 am CST, yields RAMC of 179?00'.
His progressed Sun will be 178?23'.
His progressed Jupiter will be at 299?32', trine prog Sun and the progressed anlunar MC.

E.Pt 269?00'. Anlunar Pluto 269?02'

10:00 am CST, RAMC of 179?45'.
Anlunar Venus rises at 179?46'.

11:30 am CST, RAMC of 180?30'.
Prog anlunar Venus rises at 180?19'. Anlunar Moon on MC at 180?31'.

Relocating the The 8:30 am, CST progressed anlunar to Honolulu yields a RAMC of 108?47' on the MC. Transit Jupiter is on the IC at 109?04'. Natal Merc/Ven on the MC at 108?24'.

All in all, not connections to the angles I would expect to see in the chart of a loser.

**********************************************************************************

BIDEN

Progressing Joe Biden's 2008 demi-solar anlunar to 9:30 am, EST on Nov 5th yields a RAMC of 17?56' making the E. Pt. 107?56'. Anlunar Jupiter is opposite at 107?58', PAL Jupiter at 108?01', transit Jupiter at 109?04' and secondary progressed Jupiter conjunct at 109?54'.

**********************************************************************************

MCCAIN

On Nov 5th at 7:30 am, MST, (equivalent to 8:30 am, CST) McCain's progressed anlunar will have 73?03' as RAMC. His secondary progressed Saturn will be on the Descendant at 72?30'. His natal Neptune rises when the RAMC IS 73?09'. Following that the progressing angles of the anlunar (all of them - MC, Asc, E.PT or their opposites) will sweep various combinations of natal, progressed, and transiting Saturn and/or Neptune throughout the rest of the day.

All in all, not connections to the angles I would expect to see in the chart of a winner.

***********************************************************************************

PALIN

Mrs Palin has the transit of Saturn to progressed and natal Pluto coming up prior to and on election day. Saturn will conjunct her progressed Pluto (in right ascension remember) on Oct 25 and will join with natal Pluto on NOV 3!

On Nov 5 at 5:30 am YST, (equivalent to 8:30 am, CST) her secondary progressed Nadir will be 333?32', her secondary progressed Saturn will be at 332?53'.

Looking at her 2008 demi-solar anlunar for election day, it will have a W. Pt. of 227?04'. Her secondary progressed Neptune and midpoint of transiting Sun/Mars, both at 225?31' would have been swept by the progressed anlunar W. Pt. a little more than 3 hours earlier.

If she votes in Wasilla early on Nov 4 then flys to Sedona, AZ the anlunar commences at 8:45:12 pm, MST, and has an IC of 169?17. Her secondary progressed Pluto will be at 169?28'. Return Saturn will be at 170?37' and natal Pluto at 170?31. At 11:15 pm, MST (0:15 am CST on Nov 5) the IC will be 170?33'.

***********************************************************************************

ADDENDUM

The conjunction with her progressed Pluto on Oct 25 may have fallout which affects McCain as Saturn will conjoin his progressed Neptune on Oct 27 and 28, just a week before the election.

Perhaps his progressed Venus plays a part in this as it will be at 260?34' on Oct 25. 260?34' - 90? = 170?34'. Transit Saturn will finish the day at 169?43', less than 1? in an applying square. On Nov 5 at 7:30 am, MST that orb will be 0?29'.

Bob

Birth data used in my previous post:

Barak Obama
Aug 4, 1961
7:24 pm, AHST (Birth Certificate)
Honolulu, HI

Joe Biden
Nov 20, 1942
8:30 am, EWT Rodden rating: A. (Marion March quotes Celeste Longacre who says he
told her.)
Source: ADb
Scranton, PA

John McCain
Aug 29, 1936
6:25 pm, EST (Birth Certificate)
Colon, Panama

Sarah Palin
Feb 11, 1964
9:18 am, PST (My rectification)
Sandpoint, ID

Bob

I am pretty much convinced that the 9AM time for McCain is the correct chart, NOT the 6:25PM that someone put out.

Looking at his chart with the Soltice Points and the progressed year of 1967, all confirm this for me. Just for one point, his Mars soltice point for his progressed year, counting forward in the ephemeris, puts it exact on his 7th of war, opposing his Asc. There are many other aspects there too, all at 17'.

There is nothing that stands out in the 6:25PM time.

Also, his ruler in the 9 AM chart is Venus, which is in mutual reception with his 12th ruler, allowing him to get out of what troubles he got into - that year as a POW which he was finally able to get out of 5 years later when many would have died from the injuries and experiences.

There is nothing unique about the 6:25 PM chart which gives him Pisces rising.

Also, the 9 AM natal, puts the moon in this 4th house. Growing up, they constantly moved and he was never longer than a couple of years in any location. Arizona is the first permanent home he has had and even there, he commutes back and forth to DC and has several other homes.

RC