The National chart of Norway has MC28TA08 conj Pleiades, or Aladdin's Lamp - as I would like to suggest. The Norwegians have been historically poor as a nation, but this changed with their independence in 1905. So maybe a new national chart can change a nation's fortune. As fishermen they have historically been largely dependent on the herring, but of course the magic comes into the picture when they disovered their oil resources in the late 60's. The Oil rigs stuck out in the North sea actually remind of oil lamps, as they stand there burning like candles.

I have no other reference to Pleiades being of the nature of Jupiter and the Moon than the Loeb edition of Tetrabiblos and an article provided to me by MarkC. My appologies for incorrectly quoting Bernadette Brady. However, according to Pearce, a corruption of the hebrew word Chemasch (Day 5, 'the Star of Warmth', Jupiter) is Meshech, which means to anoint with oil. When observing Pleiades through a telescope you cannot be impressed by anything but that the construction of the constellation being 'plentiful'.

I'm just thinking out loud, because I can't explain how the fixed stars got to be associated with the planetary natures in the first place, probably mostly as a either coding or term of description, but if Pleiades is associated with rain and blurred vision or cloudiness in the eye, doesn't seem to resemble a Jupiterian association wiht Pisces, more than the nature of Mars?

There could also be a transformative aspect to be considered like Oil (Mars, Moon - which is pretty dirty and hard to get) transforms to Money and Wealth (Jupiter, Moon). Initially you are 'bottled up', but after you Weep, which indicates some emotional release or tapping of the 'Well', then you are set free. You either rub the Lamp (light) or your eyes (lights) to bring about the magic or transformation, and then it's as if you were given a magic carpet! No wonder the also called Pleiades the 'Clucking Hen'... Who wouldn't cluck with an oil-well in their back yard!?

I am probably taking this too far, but the uncertainity provides a delightful opportunity to consider the constellation's influence from new angles?

Great thread! Thanks!

Hello Andrew,

I suppose I was trying to come at this from an historical perspective in terms of the different lore associated wiith these stars in western astrology.

However, there is so much lore associated with the Pleiades across all cultures there are some undoubtably associations that come closer to the more positive interpretation you suggest.

You might want to check out this article on the Bible and the Pleiades

http://www.geocentricity.com/constellat ... eiades.pdf

I dont subscibe to the Christian mysticism of the author but he does bring out some extremely interesting connections in the Jewish and Christian and other traditions connected to the Pleiades that seem relevant to you. For example associations linked to 7 Angels, as well as connections to birds, a cup, grape-cluster, The Menorah (7 candlestick holder=symbol of Judaism), God of Fire ( Agni) in Hinduism, and even Noah's Ark!

Actually, I forgot to mention earlier there is a strong nautical link to the Pleiades in the Greek tradition too. To quote from Deb's excellent article again:

The origin of the term Pleiades is not purely explained by the name of the mythological mother; many consider that it derives from the Greek term 'to sail' since the heliacal rising of the group in May coincided with the new season of navigation for the Greeks, and the stars were believed to have a strong influence upon the waters, being known as 'the sailor's stars'. Others consider it originates from the term meaning 'full', 'many' or 'plural' and a derivative Arabic name Al Thurayya, meaning 'Abundance', was argued by Al-Biruni to refer to both their appearance and to the effect that their attendant rain had upon the crops.

The nautical link certainly seems spot on for Norway.

In cultures like that of the ancient Celts the Pleiades seem to have symbolised both death and rebirth. The setting of the Pleiades, celebrated during the Autumn/Winter in November/December, brought with it death and endings; and the rising of the Pleiades, celebrated in the spring during March/April, came new birth and beginnings.

To the Bronze Age people of Europe, such as the Celts (and probably considerably earlier), the Pleiades were associated with mourning and with funerals, since at that time in history, on the cross-quarter day between the autumn equinox and the winter solstice, which was a festival devoted to the remembrance of the dead, the cluster rose in the eastern sky as the sun's light faded in the evening. It was from this acronychal rising that the Pleiades became associated with tears and mourning. As a result of precession over the centuries, the Pleiades no longer marked the festival, but the association has nevertheless persisted in festivals like Halloween, and may be another reason for the significance of the Pleiades astrologically.

Thus to ancient cultures like the Celts it was the disapperance of the Pleiades that had the connection to death. Their re-appearance was linked to life and rebirth.

To the Vikings, they were Freya's hens, and their name in many old European languages compares them to a hen with chicks.

For the Maori the new year festival of Matariki marks the time when the stars of the Pleiades rise in the north-eastern skies in late May or early June. This signals to M?ori that the New Year will begin. In one tradition, Matariki is the mother surrounded by her six daughters, Tupu-a-nuku, Tupu-a-rangi, Wait?, Wait?, Waipuna-a-rangi and Ururangi.

In the Maya culture , the Pleiades form the basis of the Tzolk'in or sacred calendar of the Maya which is based on the cycles of the Pleiades. The cycle of the Pleiades uses 26,000 years, with the Sun orbiting Alcyone, the central star of the Pleiades, but is reflected in the calendar we are using by encompassing 260 days. Their calendar year began when the Maya priests first remarked the asterism rising heliacally in the east, immediately before the sun's dawn light obliterated the view of the stars. The Maya believed that they came from the Pleiades, or ?Tzab-ek", (Rattlesnake's tail), as they are known by them.

More practically, The the Pleiades was linked by the Maya and Aztecs to agricultural key dates for planting and harvesting. Because this star cluster is near the ecliptic, the seasons can easily be distinguished from their heliacal rising and setting. There are four dates affiliated with the heliacal rising and setting of stars. These dates are based on the following occurrences; the first appearance of the star in the east before sunrise, the last day the star can be seen in the west before sunset, the last day the star appears rising in the east after sunset, and the first day it is visible setting in the west before sunrise.

Hi Mark,

What a wonderful discussion of the Fixed Stars. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge. Those thanks go to everybody else involved too, of course.

You wrote:
Has anyone out there got a copy and willing to tell us what Schmidt says? The relevant section we are discussing is Book 1, Chapter 9, entitled 'Of The Power of The Fixed Stars'.

I happen to have a borrowed copy at home at the moment. Here's what it says about the Pleiades:

"...those in the Pleiades, like the Moon and the stars of Ares..."

So one wonders why Robbins' translation has Moon and Jupiter. Good thing that you try to get this problem solved.

Erna

The trouble with the association with Mars and the Moon is that all quotes seem to be derived from the same source, Ptolemy. And here we have two versions. Does the evidence point to the Pleiades being an evil influence?

Ebertin-Hoffman, Fixed Stars wrote:The power of Mars is good in raising people to high positions. However, with other relevant planetary connections this can make for high passion and ruthlessness. The best example here is STALIN. Alcyone, Pluto and Algol are in conjunction in his nativity.

I am not convinced by the validity of this statement. Alcyone and Algol are roughly 4 degrees apart and an alignment to Pluto can hardly be refered to as a personal condition?

Elisabeth Ebertin, Fixed Stars wrote:Sun conjunct Pleiades in most cases brings a violent death by blow, stabbing or murder.

Why do I feel like challenging these postulates?

Ebertin does suggest a inclination to homosexuality, but I would suggest that sexual diversions are more a consequence of emotional frustration and 'bottled up' feelings.

Andrew J. Bevan wrote:The trouble with the association with Mars and the Moon is that all quotes seem to be derived from the same source, Ptolemy. And here we have two versions. Does the evidence point to the Pleiades being an evil influence?

Hello Andrew,

but why do you think Ptolemy is the main source for Pleiades?
Traditionally in fact they are very "stormy" stars in Rome traditional calendars like Columella, Plinius and so on.
Stade (1560) gives several quotes taken from these texts rather than giving his own one.

I don't think - this is my opinion, anyway- everything about fixed stars comes from Ptolemy, Manilius mentions many barbarian stars which are not in Ptolemy and put several stars in another way.
I think there are several different sources rather just Ptolemaic one, and moreover in Manilius/Firmicus paranatellonta make native's qualities, so in the case:

"The Pleiades are found in the sixth degree of Taurus. Those who are born when these are rising are always involved in luxury and lust. They are always drenched in perfumes, given to too much wine drinking, impudent in speech, so that in banquets and love-making they attack their companions with a sarcastic wit. They are addicted to all crimes of passion and are the kind who raise laughter by their biting tongues."

And this is an older source than Ebertin...

On the other hand Mark already mentioned the corresponding quote from Manilius.

Have a nice day,
margherita

Gjiada wrote:Why do you think Ptolemy is the main source for Pleiades?

You've got me wrong on that. Lilly, Sibly, Pearce, Robson all refer to Ptolemy. According to Al H. Morrison, Ptolemy was a 'copy-cat' typist (take the pun) - although I think we probably all will give him more credit than that. Ptolemy seems to have collected and catalogized the mainstream of astrological knowledge of his time. Nobody is suggesting he invented it. For some reason the Tetrabiblos has up until now received more attention than other works as a major work classical reference. I have not yet found anything that takes me beyond Ptolemy that explains whether Pleiades should be associated with Moon & Mars or Moon & Jupiter. Therefore the question is open.

Colour has sometimes been used to describe the quality or nature of the planets and the fixed stars. In example, Alcyone is white giant and does not share in the redness of Aldebaran. However, colour does probably not offer a satisfacory explaination of celestial influence/associations.

Rigor doe in this "Power of the Fixed Stars" (1979) say that of all the stars in the Pleiades, Alcylone is more a positve nature, while the rest are of a direful nature. I don't know where he is getting it from, or if he is just making it up. I have my doubts whether this work can be used as a reference at all.

As far as the planetary associations of the fixed stars, Ptolemy only claimed that his work gave ?the observations of the effects of the fixed stars themselves as made by our predecessors? (Robbins, p.59).

According to Al H. Morrison, Ptolemy was a 'copy-cat' typist - although I think we probably all will give him more credit than that.

I'm glad you said that. The phrase ?copy-cat? typist shows a lack of understanding of why the Tetrabiblos is a valued text. Traditionally, and certainly in the era when books and manuscripts were scarce and each one had to be reproduced by hand, astrological authors aimed to preserve rather than innovate, and readers expected to access traditionally attested knowledge, not personal opinion.

The importance of these associations is not that they were Ptolemy?s own, but that they are time-honoured. We should be grateful that in Ptolemy?s work we have at least some clear references to ancient star associations. This doesn?t mean that we have to take them up without challenge, of course, but I also wish we were able to discover more about the sources that Ptolemy used, and establish how widespread these associations actually were.

Andrew J. Bevan wrote:You've got me wrong on that. Lilly, Sibly, Pearce, Robson all refer to Ptolemy. According to Al H. Morrison, Ptolemy was a 'copy-cat' typist (take the pun) - although I think we probably all will give him more credit than that. Ptolemy seems to have collected and catalogized the mainstream of astrological knowledge of his time. Nobody is suggesting he invented it.

I agree completely with you.

For some reason the Tetrabiblos has up until now received more attention than other works as a major work classical reference. I have not yet found anything that takes me beyond Ptolemy that explains whether Pleiades should be associated with Moon & Mars or Moon & Jupiter. Therefore the question is open.

Well, Manilius was lost till Renaissance...Still hellenistic sources were known, like the chapter on paranatellonta in Liber Hermetis.
And Firmicus writes in IV century, and his book is not exactly a prose version of Manilius, more likely both authors are using the same source, which is different from Ptolemy.

About Moon/Mars or Moon/Jupiter I have not the answer, obviously.
Still I believe that for some stars like Pleiades, heralding spring and autumn, we could easily find other sources, like Latin calendars.
Rome was an agrarian culture before being an Empire, we don't forget this.
And Pleiades were traditional stormy and earthquake bringers...

Colour has sometimes been used to describe the quality or nature of the planets and the fixed stars. In example, Alcyone is white giant and does not share in the redness of Aldebaran. However, colour does probably not offer a satisfacory explaination of celestial influence/associations.

Colour is important, anyway there could be more, I agree again.

Rigor doe in this "Power of the Fixed Stars" (1979) say that of all the stars in the Pleiades, Alcylone is more a positve nature, while the rest are of a direful nature. I don't know where he is getting it from, or if he is just making it up. I have my doubts whether this work can be used as a reference at all.

No idea about this, if I find some reference I will post it.

Hello Ea,

Thanks for clearing up the Schmidt translation position on this. There was I finding all those complicated explanations and I missed out it could just be a translation issue. Oh well it was fun exploring the other options! With Ashmand, Schmidt and Bezza all favoring Moon and Mars that does leave the Robbins translation looking rather isolated.

In a way I prefer the Moon and Mars as it fits better with the Mesopotanian sources and the Vedic tradition. I see no compelling reason to exclusively restrict our astrological interpretation to the Graeco-Roman world-view when it comes to star-lore. Nevertheless, clarifying the traditional sources is a different matter.

Margherita,

And Pleiades were traditional stormy and earthquake bringers...

Again the overlap with the Hyades is interesting. Ptolemy notes the Pleiades are marked by earthquakes, winds and mists while the Hyades are associated with Fire, thunder and lightning.

Incidentally, I checked out Ben Dykes translation of Guido Bonatti's 'Book of Astronomy'. Dont ask me why but Bonatti has the Pleiades of the nature of the Moon and Mercury!

Got to dash now.

Mark

MarkC wrote: Incidentally, I checked out Ben Dykes translation of Guido Bonatti's 'Book of Astronomy'. Dont ask me why but Bonatti has the Pleiades of the nature of the Moon and Mercury!
Mark

Moon and Mercury????!!!

Hi,

Incidentally, I checked out Ben Dykes translation of Guido Bonatti's 'Book of Astronomy'. Dont ask me why but Bonatti has the Pleiades of the nature of the Moon and Mercury!

Could this have anything to do with the fact that the Pleiades are marked with winds, I wonder? Mercury is after all the planet of winds.

Just a thought.

Ea

Hi, I thought that maybe some of you would be interested in one of the American Indian legends surrounding Pleiades.

This is from www.firstpeople.us

An Onondaga Legend
A long time ago a party of Indians went through the woods toward a good hunting-ground, which they had long known. They traveled several days through a very wild country, going on leisurely and camping by the way.

At last they reached Kan-ya-ti-yo, "the beautiful lake," where the gray rocks were crowned with great forest trees. Fish swarmed in the waters, and at every jutting point the deer came down from the hills around to bathe or drink of the lake. On the hills and in the valleys were huge beech and chestnut trees, where squirrels chattered, and bears came to take their morning and evening meals.

The chief of the band was Hah-yah-no, "Tracks in the water," and he halted his party on the lake shore that he might return thanks to the Great Spirit for their safe arrival at this good hunting-ground. "Here will we build our lodges for the winter, and may the Great Spirit, who has prospered us on our way, send us plenty of game, and health and peace." The Indian is always thankful.

The pleasant autumn days passed on. The lodges had been built, and hunting had prospered, when the children took a fancy to dance for their own amusement. They were getting lonesome, having little to do, and so they met daily in a quiet spot by the lake to have what they called their jolly dance. They had done this a long time, when one day a very old man came to them. They had seen no one like him before. He was dressed in white feathers, and his white hair shone like silver. If his appearance was strange, his words were unpleasant as well. He told them they must stop their dancing, or evil would happen to them. Little did the children heed, for they were intent on their sport, and again and again the old man appeared, repeating his warning.

The mere dances did not afford all the enjoyment the children wished, and a little boy, who liked a good dinner, suggested a feast the next time they met. The food must come from their parents, and all these were asked when they returned home. "You will waste and spoil good victuals," said one. "You can eat at home as you should," said another, and so they got nothing at all. Sorry as they were for this, they met and danced as before. A little to eat after each dance would have made them happy indeed. Empty stomachs cause no joy.

One day, as they danced, they found themselves rising little by little into the air, their heads being light through hunger. How this happened they did not know, but one said, "Do not look back, for something strange is taking place." A woman, too, saw them rise, and called them back, but with no effect, for they still rose slowly above the earth. She ran to the camp, and all rushed out with food of every kind, but the children would not return, though their parents called piteously after them. But one would even look back, and he became a falling star. The others reached the sky, and are now what we call the Pleiades, and the Onondagas Oot-kwa-tah. Every falling or shooting star recalls the story, but the seven stars shine on continuously, a pretty band of dancing children.