Malcolm Ramsay wrote:It's not that we need numbers to tell us the good techniques are OK, Kirk, it's more that we need something to tell us that the poor techniques aren't. False prophets are ten-a-penny, and many of them sincerely believe that they are genuine - how do we ensure that we're not among them? How do we distinguish between faith and wishful thinking?

Hi Malcolm, Kirk and others,

Yes, this is my concern too. ?Astrological alphabet? is a good example about this, and it has influenced modern Western astrology enormously. Let?s take the 12th house as an example. In modern astrology it has become to signify solitariness, retreats, quietness, privacy, going deep into yourself, floating in your inner world, hiding, sanctuaries, spirituality, etc., and this is because of its association with tropical Pisces and Neptune. Most modern astrologers would swear that the 12th house as the private sanctuary works perfectly well, and their intuition tells them that it simply is so. The 12th is the house of private loners, there?s no doubt about that and it?s proved by hundreds of charts.

But then we frequently have to wonder why such extremely public people like Madonna (Sun in the 12th), David Bowie (Mercury, Mars and Sun in the 12th), Barack Obama (Saturn, the Asc ruler, and Jupiter conjoining in the 12th) and Tony Blair (Venus, Mercury and Sun in the 12th house, also Mars/Jupiter separating from the Ascendant to the 12th house) have such an emphasized 12th house. It's statistical study that shows us that actually it?s not unusual at all for people like actors and pop stars to have planets in the 12th house http://koti.welho.com/jmetsovu/symbolic ... _house.htm .

This observation gives an interesting angle for Barack Obama?s horoscope: John McCain has tried to dismiss him by comparing him to such figures as Paris Hilton, and he has been criticized by being all about glamorous public presentation with no real substance or political skill. There is a danger that he?s merely playing the role of the savior and leader (and doing it well). Please don?t get me wrong, I?m all for electing Obama for the president of the US, but there is this interesting 12th house twist anyway in his horoscope giving him some pop star like glamour. (And remember how Tony Blair liked to hang out with pop culture people and associate himself with the fancy youth ? he?s also been accused of manipulating the media together with his press secretary Alastair Campbell.)

Sari

Sari wrote:

Let?s take the 12th house as an example. In modern astrology it has become to signify solitariness, retreats, quietness, privacy, going deep into yourself, floating in your inner world, hiding, sanctuaries, spirituality, etc., and this is because of its association with tropical Pisces and Neptune.

I'm very much drawn to the idea that the diversity that we see comes from the interaction of a very small number of archetypal energies, so I don't have a problem with the 'astrological alphabet'. In the example that you give of 12th house/Pisces/Neptune it seems to me the problem comes from looking at that 12th principle too narrowly: if you think of it as embodying enchantment (an old meaning of glamour) and consider that it can operate either inwardly or outwardly - either drawing the individual in, or flowing out through them - then I think that contrast that you comment on makes quite a lot of sense.

Malcolm

Malcolm Ramsay wrote: What you're suggesting is very much along the lines that I'm working on. I don't know if there is already software available to do that kind of analysis, but it probably wouldn't run under Linux anyway, so I'm in the process of writing my own.

I'm glad to hear of your work, tell me more if you like. I found a statistical app written in Java that has been very useful for solving some interesting problems (along the lines of "what are the odds of that?"). It's available at: www.statistics101.net -- It should work on Linux, I think.

I have used this program to try out some simple models for studying the kind of problem I mentioned before: what is the probability of finding a cross-aspect between two specific planets in a pair of charts. Of course it can't do any astrology; you have to translate the problem into terms the software can handle. This is an interesting exercise in itself.

MarkC wrote: The key question is surely whether the statistical approach to astrology is a worthwhile pursuit or is it doomed from the outset?

Will the empirical approach ever prove astrology or any particular technique of astrology? Or is the whole approach of astrological research ,excluding the astrologer at its heart, philosophically misconceived?

Earlier, I summed up the kind of approach that you're questioning like this: "driven by the idea that some quite predictable or consistent relationship will show itself when looking across many charts to correlate astrological factors with empirical observations." But if this statement leaves out something critical, I would like to improve on it, so let me know what you think.

So as you say, this approach is excluding the astrologer; it also tends to gloss over the particulars of each case by looking for what all the cases have in common. My take on it is that we have to get a better understanding of what we are trying to measure or capture in a chart. This is also a challenge for the astrologer who isn't doing research.

One way I'm pursuing this kind of problem is to compare my intuitive findings (from reading a chart) with the calculations that identify the most unusual features of the chart. Well, this gives a rough idea of it at least.

But then we frequently have to wonder why such extremely public people like Madonna (Sun in the 12th), David Bowie (Mercury, Mars and Sun in the 12th), Barack Obama (Saturn, the Asc ruler, and Jupiter conjoining in the 12th) and Tony Blair (Venus, Mercury and Sun in the 12th house, also Mars/Jupiter separating from the Ascendant to the 12th house) have such an emphasized 12th house. It's statistical study that shows us that actually it?s not unusual at all for people like actors and pop stars to have planets in the 12th house

Hello Sari,

That is an interesting point I agree. I suppose we would need to look at the position of domicile, exaltation and triplicity rulers to try to explain this. It does seem hard to reconcile with a simplistic approach to houses using modern or traditional definitions.

Here is an attempt to explain one such chart by Robert Hand using the example of George Bush.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rhand.html

Gordon Brown the current British PM is an interesting case study. He has his Sun, Venus, Mars and Jupiter in the 12th. His Sun's domicile , exaltation and triplicity rulers are all in the 12th house with it. His ASC domicile, exaltation and triplicity rulers are also in the 12th house. This man is the living embodiment of the 12th house! In Brown's case his complete lack of comfort in the public role is transparent for all to see.

What a contrast to Tony Blair! He has his Sun's domicile and triplicity ruler , (Venus) in the 11th,while the exaltation ruler is in the 10th house. His ascendant domicile ruler is in the 11th house. The triplicity ruler Saturn is in the 6th. However, its in an extremely close conjunction with the very fortunate fixed star Spica. Saturn is the domicile ruler of his MC, While Venus the triplicity ruler is in the 11th house.

This is all without even looking at aspects. We could layer on far more detail as you know. From a traditional perspective house placements are not something that can be considered in total isolation excluding things like the position of planetary rulers.

That is a fundamental difficulty I have with most astrological research. Astrology works as an art involving the synthesis of its complex parts while most statistical research relies on reductionism.

MarkC wrote:

But then we frequently have to wonder why such extremely public people like Madonna (Sun in the 12th), David Bowie (Mercury, Mars and Sun in the 12th), Barack Obama (Saturn, the Asc ruler, and Jupiter conjoining in the 12th) and Tony Blair (Venus, Mercury and Sun in the 12th house, also Mars/Jupiter separating from the Ascendant to the 12th house) have such an emphasized 12th house. It's statistical study that shows us that actually it?s not unusual at all for people like actors and pop stars to have planets in the 12th house

Hello Sari,

That is an interesting point I agree. I suppose we would need to look at the position of domicile, exaltation and triplicity rulers to try to explain this. It does seem hard to reconcile with a simplistic approach to houses using modern or traditional definitions.

Here is an attempt to explain one such chart by Robert Hand using the example of George Bush.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/rhand.html

Gordon Brown the current British PM is an interesting case study. He has his Sun, Venus, Mars and Jupiter in the 12th. His Sun's domicile , exaltation and triplicity rulers are all in the 12th house with it. His ASC domicile, exaltation and triplicity rulers are also in the 12th house. This man is the living embodiment of the 12th house! In Brown's case his complete lack of comfort in the public role is transparent for all to see.

What a contrast to Tony Blair! He has his Sun's domicile and triplicity ruler , (Venus) in the 11th,while the exaltation ruler is in the 10th house. His ascendant domicile ruler is in the 11th house. The triplicity ruler Saturn is in the 6th. However, its in an extremely close conjunction with the very fortunate fixed star Spica. Saturn is the domicile ruler of his MC, While Venus the triplicity ruler is in the 11th house.

This is all without even looking at aspects. We could layer on far more detail as you know. From a traditional perspective house placements are not something that can be considered in total isolation excluding things like the position of planetary rulers.

That is a fundamental difficulty I have with most astrological research. Astrology works as an art involving the synthesis of its complex parts while most statistical research relies on reductionism.

not to mention GW Bush and Cavaco Silva,former premier of portugal and now president, both with Sun in 12