Kirk wrote:It's important to keep in mind that the current Saturn-Uranus opposition is softened by the fact that it occurs in Virgo-Pisces. The Mutable signs are already signs of change, flexibility and moving on to another state of being and doing ....
... An opposition in the action-initiating Cardinal signs ? signs that see something they want and head for it ? would be more 'hot under the collar'.

The first four passes are in Virgo-Pisces, but the final one in July 2010 is in the first degree of Aries-Libra. The fact that the status quo is so obviously broken fits well with Kirk's analysis for the first phases of the opposition (letting go of the old); but I think that last pass in the cardinal signs (with Jupiter and Pluto also involved) indicates potential for major conflict in finding new directions. And it is surely the last pass that will set the tone of the next part of the cycle.

Malcolm,

I don't know how I did it but I managed to overlook the fact that the last opposition will be in the 1st degree of Aries-Libra. So there is something to be said for a time of Mutable change and then a more forceful Cardinal new direction. But with the first 4 hits in the Mutables and the last one in Cardinal I still don't see the period being as super-charged as it could be. The last one in Cardinal has kind of an inevitable feel to me, after the relatively lengthy 'falling away' period of the Mutables.

This does bring in the Aries Point idea. I believe Witte popularized it in the early 20th century and lots of astrologers and students now look for it (which is why I tend to stay away from it! It's just not an old enough idea for me. ) But is the Aries Point possibly important on its own as a point of power, or more subtly as a cycle beginning and therefore needing to be read in a larger context? Just as the Sun at the first degree of Aries traditionally starts the new astrological year, so Uranus at the first degree of Aries would be the beginning of some sort of Uranus cycle. Traditionally the Cardinal ingresses were important times, but as points in a cycle ? not as points of power themselves (Am I right?). Saturn in the first degree of Libra would seem rather to be at a cycle point of a Saturn cycle; once again I can't see that degree itself being a position of power. I'm cautious toward assigning power to the 1st degrees of the Cardinal signs, but perhaps more experience will change my mind. Of course, many people do see them as points of power and therefore all the 'excitement'. Can anyone add anything pre-Witte about this?

Hi again I notice when I read most people's descriptions (apart from Uzuru) above that they seem to be describing Uranus applying to Saturn (which of course isn't possible except in specific circumstances), rather than Saturn applying to Uranus. Is that a fair comment???
mike c

Hi again I notice when I read most people's descriptions (apart from Uzuru) above that they seem to be describing Uranus applying to Saturn (which of course isn't possible except in specific circumstances), rather than Saturn applying to Uranus. Is that a fair comment???

That is definately an interesting and relevant mundane observation. I wouldn't mind exploring the idea further. In some sense, whether I am to heavy on the accelerator or the car in front of me hits the brakes, the effect may be the same, but is it a question of quality, or causation, or what??

I haven't had the sense of reading Uranus applying to Saturn in this thread. That is obviously wrong and not a part of my thinking, and I can't say I've noticed it in other posts either.

I haven't had the sense of reading Uranus applying to Saturn in this thread. That is obviously wrong and not a part of my thinking, and I can't say I've noticed it in other posts either.

Hi debbie actually please excuse my post suggesting a generalised comment - actually your post brought to mind entirely different questions which I'm choosing not to muse upon here but just to make a generalised point I'll try and take quotes from above starting from the first post etc to show what I mean -

from Theo -
"...Saturn's transit through Virgo and Uranus' transit through tropical Pisces is causing a mindset across the world of the old (Saturn) being confronted by the new and maverick (Uranus.) ....

from quitefunky-
"uranus as the ruler of astrology is upsetting the saturn mindset
new and exciting ways of doing things are appearing as flashes of insight
old structures and stale ways of thinking are being challenged
innovative ideas and a new awareness "
from kirk -
"The series of Saturn-Uranus oppositions possibly will make for powerful changes,"

Obviously I know there is far more to the above than that! So apologies one and all! But it seems that often it is easier to see Saturn as the thing acted upon and Uranus and the thing doing the acting - if that makes sense

hope that helps
mike c

Quote by Theo:
"In this manner, it is also generational, as the Baby Boomers, who've rejected the very idea of aging, are being forced to come to terms with their own mortality. The young generation who rose to confront the establishment of the 1960s and 1970s now have to face their own mortality, and the fact that they are now the new senior citizens and elderly of the world. Sixty and 70 years of age is not the new 30 or 40s. The Baby Boomers have indeed aged and they must come to terms with this fact of life. Saturn will make it very clear during its transit in Virgo and entry into Libra that a new generation, born in the 1960s, is coming into power."

...It has been the observation of a number of Astrologers, here in the States, that the era of Pluto in Leo combined with Neptune in Libra produced the 'Baby Boom Era' phenomena "The Flower Children" [or somewhat derogatorily; "Hippies"]. A highly idealistic group of souls of which I am a part of. [and a great many of us also with Uranus in Cancer]
I feel I am only now coming to a mature understanding of the world. It should also be noted that these individuals are mostly between the ages of 50 to 62.
This is the time of Saturns second return for us and transiting Uranus squaring our natal Uranus positions. It should be an interesting period for us "Old Hippies".
Don't be in such a rush to seize power and controll my friend. You may get what you ask for.

newtons 3rd law of motion: "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

This is true if you try mixing a bucket of cold with a bucket of hot water, but because we are talking qualitative mathematics here and the delivery of intent, I don't feel the equation is quite the same. There is a difference between applying the restraining quality of Saturn to the rebellious nature of Uranus to breaking up the structured patterns of Saturn with the spice of Uranus. We assume that the quality of Saturn is by principle unchanged when applied to modify the qualities of Uranus. It is not necessarily a blending of worlds. It could be more like a war where the order of the one regime is forced upon the other. What I mean is that there is a qualitative difference and quality of displeasure when you are sat on the wrong end of a slap in the face (excuse my imagery). However, a kiss, hug or embrace would be quite pleasurable for both parts. As lawyers meet in court it is important to distinguish who toppled the band wagon.

Don't be in such a rush to seize power and control my friend. You may get what you ask for.

Sorry for drifting off the astrology but this comment made me smile. I see myself as one of ?that new generation, born in the 1960s, [supposedly] coming into power?, but actually facing the realisation that now that the yuppie-generation children have grown up and at last allowed a sense of space and creative freedom, the ?baby-boomer? parents are now getting quite old, forgetful, and increasingly dependent.

Mike ? I?m with you now, thanks.

I aplogize for not being trained in 'Classical Astrology' as the majority of those who frequent this Forum are. But as Uranus is retrograde at this time whilst Saturn is direct...aren't both Planets 'applying' to each other right now? What if Saturn is retro and Uranus direct, are they not then 'mutually seperating'?...or what if they are both retro at the same time, for that matter?

MikeCoop wrote:... they seem to be describing Uranus applying to Saturn (which of course isn't possible except in specific circumstances), rather than Saturn applying to Uranus. Is that a fair comment???

Hi Mike

I think it would be a fair comment if Uranus ever did apply to Saturn, but as you say, that doesn't happen. The way we talk about it has more to do with how we perceive what happens on Earth than with the planetary motions - we experience Saturn through enduring institutions and Uranus through change, so it's natural to talk as though Uranus is happening to Saturn.

But if you're commenting on the expectation that the opposition will manifest destructively, rather than constructively - Uranus breaking up the Saturn structures, rather than Saturn providing a vehicle for the energies of Uranus - then your comment seems reasonable. In practice I would say that both happen together, but the destructive effects tend to be obvious immediately, whereas the constructive effects only become visible later - and the destructive side of it is easier to talk about, because it is acting on things we already know.

Malcolm

Quitefunky wrote:to buckets of water we apply the first law of thermodynamics: "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only change forms."

Point taken, but I was not sure how you wanted to apply Newtons 3rd Law of motion to the meaning of an opposition between Saturn and Uranus. Surely neither of the planets are heating up or bouncing off in some odd direction??