I aplogize for not being trained in 'Classical Astrology' as the majority of those who frequent this Forum are.

Don't worry - those that take it *really* seriously aren't looking at this thread because it has Uranus in it

But as Uranus is retrograde at this time whilst Saturn is direct...aren't both Planets 'applying' to each other right now? What if Saturn is retro and Uranus direct, are they not then 'mutually seperating'?...or what if they are both retro at the same time, for that matter?

I think Mike was talking about the general principle of inferiors applying to superiors, and not the specifics of what is happening right now. You are right that it is a mutual application if Uranus is retrograde, but since Saturn moves so much more quickly than Uranus, I don't think we can ever move away from the view that it is Saturn that makes the application to, or separation from, Uranus. (I am glad that the serious classical astrologers are not reading this comment, and so are not going to make any big deal out of that highly controversial - probably ridiculous - reference to Uranus being a 'superior planet').

According to my software, the two planets are now 1 minute of arc in their separation from each other (Uranus 18Pisces57R, Saturn 18Virgo58).

Digressing for a mo - I only realised recently that one of the distinctions some classical astrologers make for not including outers ie not naked eye objects is not actually true of Uranus - it is visible to a trained observer even without binoculars, albeit low magnitude - and only just visible. Make of that what you will!
hmm - now wheres my ephemeris for the International Space Station :-)
mike c

[/quote]

I should also like to point out that natal Saturn for New York Stock Exchange is Aries, so Saturn through Libra is a culmination effect, as in, are we using our saturn as we ought transit. So may be more telling when it gets to that opposition than the Uranus Saturn Opposition.


Still looking into the saturn uranus aligned significations.

Granny

... they seem to be describing Uranus applying to Saturn (which of course isn't possible except in specific circumstances), rather than Saturn applying to Uranus.

Of course I can't find it now, but somewhere in CA Lilly wrote something about Saturn being the planet of strongest authority and power because it was the last planet, and that the outer planets all have power over inner ones. He states this as the reason why Saturn can signify princes, people of great power, etc. ? being the outermost planet of his time it carried the most power and authority. Therefore, Saturn will have power over Mars rather than the reverse; Mars over Mercury rather than the reverse, etc. So in using Uranus (along with Neptune and Pluto) we now have a planet that has power over the prince; we are perhaps naturally applying the power of Uranus to Saturn in this way without really thinking about it. This sort of ties in with the idea of the outer planets beyond Saturn not being part of us in our personal make up, but as more universal factors that challenge, shake up, or destroy us ? or elements of us. This is why I personally can't avoid taking a peek at Uranus in a chart, but can fairly easily skip Neptune and Pluto altogether.

As the first planet beyond Saturn and the other visible planets, Uranus can serve well as the sole representative of the big-big factors of the beyond and their disruptive effect on the so-cozy safety of what the visible planets have formed out of clay. Some people might want to say that Uranus doesn't to it alone, that first after Saturn the door is opened by Uranus' hunch-backed laboratory assistant Igor (Chiron). I'm not ready to go that far. That wounded healer stuff ? there's too much built-in New Age whininess.

"Therefore, Saturn will have power over Mars rather than the reverse; Mars over Mercury rather than the reverse, etc. So in using Uranus (along with Neptune and Pluto) we now have a planet that has power over the prince; we are perhaps naturally applying the power of Uranus to Saturn in this way without really thinking about it. This sort of ties in with the idea of the outer planets beyond Saturn not being part of us in our personal make up, but as more universal factors that challenge, shake up, or destroy us ? or elements of us. This is why I personally can't avoid taking a peek at Uranus in a chart, but can fairly easily skip Neptune and Pluto altogether."
...posted by Kirk
-----------------------------

I agree with you Kirk in that I have a modernist view of astrology also. But I disagree with you on dismissing Neptune and Pluto.
I have A Neptune /Saturn conjunction as part of a Harmonic or Mystic Rectangle in my natal chart that also includes Mercury, Venus, Pluto and the Moon.
Also Neptune and Pluto carry great influence on my chart by analysis, the Moon being the greatest..
I have had many great and profound experiences in my life due to the transits of the three known outer most Planets [Yes! I say Pluto is a Planet!]. This Matrix, the Harmonic Rectangle , like all natal matrices I have noticed, have a most profound effect when activated by the very same Planets, or Orbs, conjunct by transit to any of the degrees of the Zodiac involved in the configuration.

Kirk wrote:Some people might want to say that Uranus doesn't to it alone, that first after Saturn the door is opened by Uranus' hunch-backed laboratory assistant Igor (Chiron). I'm not ready to go that far. That wounded healer stuff ? there's too much built-in New Age whininess.

Wow, and I really spent some time on Chiron. I cannot but appreciate the pionering work of people like Al H. Morrison and Zane Stein and was a member of the ASC, the Association for Studying Chiron, in the early 80's. It was really exciting!! The community made a great effort in gathering emperical observations on probably the most interesting addition to the Solar system family for over half a century. I still have all my newsletters from that period, over 100 in number. I cannot remember anything whiny about the content of this work. The myth of Chiron as a wounded healer is surely of an earlier origin....

Sorry, but wounded healers, along with inner children, aren't my thing. I suppose that in themselves the concepts ? archetypes? ? are fine. The problem stems from a mental picture (from real life) of inspirational sunshine ramblings coming from violet-clad ladies wearing crystals, with a selection of New Age literature and paperback psychology on shelves in the background. Shriek and run away, I say. But please note that I wrote ?I'm not ready to go that far.? Maybe I will dress in violet some day.


Dave,

I take a look at Neptune and Pluto IF they are very prominently placed or make tight aspects. Otherwise, they don't offer much and only distract from what's really important. Even if they are powerfully placed I still consider them merely as additional information. But that's another thing that I could do differently in the future ? after mastering the essentials. But Uranus is different. I can't seem to easily ignore that one. And the fact that it can sometimes be faintly visible and that astrologers have been using it since the late 18th century ? the transition period to the Industrial Age and the world we now know ? almost puts it in the same crowd as the Traditional 7. For the same reasons it makes a good doorway to and representative of 'The Beyond'.

--------------

After this post, the thread went way off-topic. I've deleted all subsequent posts since the last mention of Saturn or Uranus - Deb

Malcolm Ramsay wrote:

MikeCoop wrote:... they seem to be describing Uranus applying to Saturn (which of course isn't possible except in specific circumstances), rather than Saturn applying to Uranus. Is that a fair comment???

Hi Mike

I think it would be a fair comment if Uranus ever did apply to Saturn, but as you say, that doesn't happen. The way we talk about it has more to do with how we perceive what happens on Earth than with the planetary motions - we experience Saturn through enduring institutions and Uranus through change, so it's natural to talk as though Uranus is happening to Saturn.

But if you're commenting on the expectation that the opposition will manifest destructively, rather than constructively - Uranus breaking up the Saturn structures, rather than Saturn providing a vehicle for the energies of Uranus - then your comment seems reasonable. In practice I would say that both happen together, but the destructive effects tend to be obvious immediately, whereas the constructive effects only become visible later - and the destructive side of it is easier to talk about, because it is acting on things we already know.

Malcolm

Saturn's transit through tropical Virgo will continue to act on the things we already know Malcolm. Sadly, times are getting worse, as the global economic crisis has already begun to strike at the hearts of many nations, with dire effects on millions of people who are out of work, losing homes, and lifestyles. Many things are changing, radically, as as the Saturn/Uranus opposition continues to transit along the Virgo/Pisces axis into 2010, these mutable energies are released in a manner that is closing many doors for many millions, and opening a new era for all of us.

Many people are losing so much that it is heart-breaking to have to witness this. The effects on society will be profound: rising crime, broken families, destroyed communities, bankrupt companies, and the lack of opportunities. Uranus' transit through tropical Pisces is ending a cycle begun in 1928, and we will see a return to a Depression worldwide.

This Economic Depression will be much like the one of the 1930s, though there will be differences since some governments are more involved than they were in during the darkest years of the 1930 Depression. There will be more opportunties to stem the tide; however, the fact that millions are losing jobs, and that many companies operating in a wide range of industries are failing; we are now witnessing another historic era in the world.

Should this continue into the 2010s, and I believe that it will, then we will see comparisons to the economic depression of the 1930s, which will rewrite the way business is done in the world, and in the meantime, change many millions of lives in the process. We are just seeing the start of this now...

Malcolm Ramsay wrote:

Kirk wrote:It's important to keep in mind that the current Saturn-Uranus opposition is softened by the fact that it occurs in Virgo-Pisces. The Mutable signs are already signs of change, flexibility and moving on to another state of being and doing ....
... An opposition in the action-initiating Cardinal signs ? signs that see something they want and head for it ? would be more 'hot under the collar'.

The first four passes are in Virgo-Pisces, but the final one in July 2010 is in the first degree of Aries-Libra. The fact that the status quo is so obviously broken fits well with Kirk's analysis for the first phases of the opposition (letting go of the old); but I think that last pass in the cardinal signs (with Jupiter and Pluto also involved) indicates potential for major conflict in finding new directions. And it is surely the last pass that will set the tone of the next part of the cycle.

I agree Malcolm. My analysis of the 2010s started in the 1990s, and I continue to be amazed at the great number of global superior transits of the next decade. The clearest signs of what is to come for the world via these energies will be Saturn's transit towards Libra and Uranus ending its 1928/1969 cycle in Pisces, before making ingress to the 0-Aries point.

Aries is also a "barren" sign, and the last time Uranus made transit here was from 1928-1935, more or less, which was during the worst years of the Great Depression, along with a series of droughts, depressed food prices, and poor working conditions for the masses, if work could be found at all.

Saturn's transit into Libra in 2010/2011 and it's square to Pluto in Capricorn shows challenges in the area of government and new laws, or, the remaking of old laws to fit a new atmosphere. There's a strong atmosphere of regulatory power returning, that's for sure, and the conflicts inherent between groups of varying interests will continue into the 2010s.

What I am concerned about other than the great loss of jobs, and loss of over $100 trillion worldwide would be deflationary pressures prior to 2010, and then inflation by the mid-2010s. There's a lot of fiat money circulating the globe now, and with the coming opposition between Jupiter/Uranus and Saturn in 2010 and 2011 ~ this global recession will surely deepen, and will require herculean efforts to avoid, if only to just stay jsut above the water.

Hi Theo

I must confess I tend not to pay much attention to the symbolism of specific astrological processes. I think most can manifest in so many different ways, and there are so many different ones operating all the time, that you either have to analyse the astrology in far more depth than I'm willing to (and currently capable of), or only use it to refine a view of the future that comes primarily from other sources.

I sometimes compare astrological prediction with trying to identify a number: in this analogy knowing 'real world' facts tells you that the answer lies within a certain range (the more facts, the narrower the range), while astrological factors tell you what prime numbers it is divisible by. Just as any set of prime numbers has an infinite number of products, so, as far as I can see, every astrological configuration has an infinite range of possible manifestations. So it can be impressively precise (if we know or guess correctly what range the answer is going to fall in) but can also be wildly wrong even when the astrological analysis is valid. My impression is that disagreement over interpretation stems as often from different views of the 'real world' context as it does from different understanding of astrological factors - and I think people often don't take that into account.

I start from a position where, observing the world (and my own hopes), I form a picture of the future by imagining the changes that I believe must happen; I then look at the astrology for confirmation and timing, and adjust my picture to fit. The integrity of government and law is a central interest for me and I feel that there is a possibility, at this point in history, to leave behind some of the fundamental flaws that have distorted the management of the world for centuries - there is no astrology behind that, but that feeling is a preconception that governs what I see when I look at what the planets are doing.

Some of the transits you mentioned - Saturn aspecting Uranus as it begins a new cycle of the Zodiac, and Pluto moving into Capricorn (and the very tight configurations in 2010, 2013 and 2014) - help me have confidence in that view of the future, but if I didn't already have that vision, I couldn't begin to predict anything. I suspect that's true for you too - that your analysis of the astrological climate of the coming decade essentially confirms expectations that you have formed by other means. To my mind that's how natural astrology works best, but I think it's important to keep it in plain view that that's what we're doing.

I'm not quite sure why I'm writing in this vein; but a thread like this can easily descend into just swapping dire predictions and I think we should be able to do more than that. Can we use astrology to help us understand the roots of the problems that are coming up? Does it offer any guidance to the attitudes we should adopt to face those problems? And can we use it to avoid repeating the mistakes that brought us to where we are now?

Malcolm

Hi Malcolm,

I have always applied my practice of astrology to forecast the weather, both "outer" and "inner" weather to help others to properly prepare for the atmospheric climate caused by the revolutions of the Sun, Moon, planets and stars, including the motions of our own planet the Earth.

Some people have a false view of astrology through the word "predict" in that they believe astrology somehow "fates" them, therefore, there is nothing they can do to influence or change the future. This is very far from the truth, as we all have free will, but within the realm of the regulation of the transits, and therefore, we have choices how we "dress" for the weather, both outer, in the material, or natural world, and the "inner" weather of our own spiritual and mental lives.

Forecasts on coming global transits can be applied in many ways, and they are delievered according to the utilities and skills of the particular astrologer to the world-at-large. How people respond to forecasts, dire, or not, depends on the people themselves, as astrologers are only warners, serving as watchers of signs, and guiders of those who are in need of guidance.

However, you are right, we as astrologers should be able to do more than that. This means closing ranks from those who would turn astrology into a solely humanistic exercise without realizing that the great history of Astrology cannot be packaged into a singular modernist philosophy that seeks to seperate it from its true origins. Until this is done, it will not be easy for Astrology to return to its great heights where royalty, and all common people of the world learned to take care to listen to glad tidings and warnings from astrologers who take serious notes of the signs in the skies.

Concerning my perspective of the global Saturn/Uranus opposition, one of the easiest ways to not fall under the more unfavorable tone of this opposition is to cooperate with others of common positive interests, and to leave behind those who seek mischief, and harbor ill-will towards others. One of the influences of Saturn's opposition to Uranus is first bring to the surface, and then to expose negative, bad people, and their actions to daylight so others of goodwill can see and respond towards this by taking positive action.

Oppositions of this kind can have favorable results, depending on the reactions and preactions of others. Much depends on how people respond to one another, and this depends on morals, civility, compassion, and love ~ human qualities that are always free to use by all of us should we choose to do so.

However, should we not learn to cultivate and to spread these positive qualities more so in the world, then any malefic planetary energies will be alllowed to function, and will not be neutralized unless more people utilize the warnings of what will come in the future under global transits, and cultivate positive thought patterns that result in positive actions. In this way, people are able to transcend themselves, and, by doing so, the world progresses forward, and positively evolves.

Concerning my perspective of the global Saturn/Uranus opposition, one of the easiest ways to not fall under the more unfavorable tone of this opposition is to cooperate with others of common positive interests, and to leave behind those who seek mischief, and harbor ill-will towards others. One of the influences of Saturn's opposition to Uranus is first bring to the surface, and then to expose negative, bad people, and their actions to daylight so others of goodwill can see and respond towards this by taking positive action

Negative, Bad people. Are these the rich, meat eaters, christians, country music fans, child abusers, humanistic astrologers. Common positive interests. Are these animal rights, depth psychology, globalisation, walking, vinyl collecting, anal sex, humanistic astrology.