A friend set this chart. She had been told workmen wo--uld be coming the
next day to fit a new window, but she also had to go out in the afternoon. She wanted to know what time the workmen would arrive, so she set this chart the evening before.

17th. November 2008, 6.36pm, GMT, Droitwich, UK. Regiomontanus, 7 degrees Cancer rising. What time will the workmen arrive?

She is represented by the Moon, the workmen by Lord 6, Jupiter. The only aspect between them is a wide separating opposition. There doesn't seem to be anything in the chart to suggest the workmen would be arriving, so she made the judgement they wouldn't be coming. They arrived at ten minutes past mid-day.

Can anyone throw any light on why this chart didn't work?
H.

Hi, the chart worked allright The question wasn't WHETHER they would come but WHEN they would come. They came 17,5 hours after the question; move IC (her home) 17,5 degrees forward and you get to 19,5 Virgo - in exact trine with Jupiter (the workers) and at the same time also exact. conj. Saturn in the 4th - its dispozitor. (Besides, Mars also represents the workers by being on 6th cusp and the Moon applies by trine to it.) Hope this helps

Hi, Moon to Mars doesn't fit but IC to Jupiter does

Hi, Harlequin

Debbie has a great article on the considerations which provides the primary reason this chart did not work. The question itself in the way it was phrased demanded that the event transpire in less than 24 hours.
Actual real-time events will answer the question before it is even proper to ask it.

Here's what I mean by that:

Many classical astrologers, notably Bonattus, have found that questions asked which require a time frame of less than 24 hours until the event are poor horary material. This question would fall into the category of a "light and passing" question. The querent may be slightly inconvenienced by the timing of the workmen, but the background of the question itself reveals that it is not a matter of deep, "prayerful" concern that has been troubling her for longer than a day.

When we ask a horary question, we "pray"; we lift our heartfelt intentions to the stars. Because the universe is one, the stars are in a position to answer our heartfelt question at the moment it is asked. We must use our resources--including the next 24 hours--to exhaust more ordinary means of answering a question before the matter becomes useful horary material.

Let's look at how the chart was timed:

She wanted to know what time the workmen would arrive, so she set this chart the evening before.

She did not draw the chart for the moment the question came to her spontaneously. Her time frames forced her to ask before she had a full 24 hours to reflect on the situation. There may have been one or several moments during the next 24-hour day when a particular ascendant would have yielded the "correct" answer. But to force the chart to give an answer before the querent has given the earth a chance to spin all 360 degrees of its rotation is to ask for an unreliable chart.

In this case, I say it is better to let the Sun (real-time events) answer the question than the Moon (horary).

Others may think differently, but that's my two cents!

Best,

Pam

Well, looking at it after the fact...

Saturn & Capricorn are the natural rulers of carpenter type workers and you had capricorn on the 7th house which also rules the other person. The other person happens to be your carpenter/worker as Saturn is Jupiter's dispositor, the worker's job.

Saturn is in the 4th in the chart, your home, and looking forward to being there, by subtracting the degree of the IC from Saturn's degree, he is 18:01 degrees away, or 18 + hours away from showing up, which would put it at the time he actually arrived the next day.
(Saturn in your chart also is dispositor of your 6th house Jupiter, another reason to look at Saturn as your timer to the IC, your home). Saturn is also the timekeeper and your question did concern time. I have to politely disagree with Pam above about the legitimacy of this question. I think its pretty nicely described by the question as well as predicting the timing.

Trish

Hi, Trish!

Welcome to the skyscript forum! Politeness is always appreciated in any community.

If you are interested in reading Deborah's very useful article, I will post the link here for you or anyone else who would like to read it:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary_questions.html

I feel confident that taking Deborah's (and Bonatti's, and Lilly's etc.) approach has saved me endless hours of reading charts which would have given me no valid answers.

I wonder where you got Saturn as a significator of carpenters. Lilly uses Mars for carpenters. I would never have thought of Saturn. Mars rules sharp objects like a saw blade or a pointed nail. Carpentry tools tend to be made of iron-derived Martian steel rather than Saturnian lead.

If you have sources that show Saturn as a significator of carpenters, I would be curious to know what they are.

If you would like to look further into the considerations, there is one consideration that tells us to read charts with Saturn on the cusp of the seventh with great caution. Unless you have a good reason to think that Saturn is especially descriptive of the seventh house in this chart (in this case, if the workman hired were very old, for example), many astrologers tend to read these charts with extra caution because Saturn's rulership here may indicate the astrologer's (Saturn) error in reading the chart.

Thanks for sharing!

Best,

Pam

Hi Pam:

Thanks for that info. I will read it as I am always seeking to learn more. I'm not claiming to be any authority here. Just giving how one could interpret it. And of course now its in hindsight too which makes it easy.
These timing questions always intrigue me and also exasperate me!

Actually I made a little math mistake on that chart. It would be between 17 and 18 hours. I don't think you'd get closer than within a half hour on a prediction there. Either Jupiter or Saturn could have been used in my reading of it (which means nothing of course)

But as for Saturn/Capricorn as carpenter/workmen: Saturn rules hard manual type labor, no? As for carpentry in particular, and where I got that I can only refer you to Rex Bills' The Rulership Book. And he does include Mars as the other significator. I realize that is a modern book but traditional astrologist do use Saturn for manual type labor do they not? I'm open to both branches of astrology myself.

Best,

Trish

Hi, Trish

Here's a link to some of Lilly's material that you might want to look over.
Both Saturn and Mars are associated with people who perform heavy physical labor. As a rule, Saturn laborors are dealing with large animals or moving earth, dirt, stone, brick. Mars folks on the other hand are bearing sharp objects like swords, spears, razors, saws, or knives. Mars folk also get to work with fire.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ca_downloads.html

Lilly says of Mars:

People Signified: Princes ruling by tyranny or oppression, tyrants, usurpers, new conquerors. Generals of armies, colonels, captains or soldiers generally; physicians, apothecaries, surgeons, alchemists, gunners, butchers, marshals, sergeants, bailiffs, hangmen, thieves, smiths, bakers, armourers, watch-makers, botchers, tailors, cutlers of swords and knives, barbers, dyers, cooks, carpenters, gamesters, bear-wards, tanners, curriers

Lilly says of Saturn:

Husbandmen, clowns, beggars, day-labourers, old-men, fathers, grand-fathers, monks, Jesuits, Sectarists, Curriers, night-farmers, miners under ground, tinners, potters, broom-men, plumbers, brick-makers, malsters, chimney-sweepers, sextons of churches, bearers of dead corpses, scavengers, hostlers, colliers, carters, gardeners, ditchers, chandlers, dyers of black cloth, an herdsman, shepherd or cow-keeper.

I began with varied sources, but I have to admit I fell completely in love with Lilly's techniques once I got my hands on Christian Astrology. Some people are a little frustrated by the language, but it's worth the effort you put into reading it when you see his techniques transform and refine your comprehension of the language of the stars. I have seen predictions in chart after chart come to pass using his techniques. The ones which don't work for me tend to be due to carelessness on my part. I find that the closer I stick to Lilly, the better I do with my predictions.

I wish you much joy in pursuing your study of horary astrology!

Best,

Pam

spirlhelix wrote:Hi, Trish

Here's a link to some of Lilly's material that you might want to look over.
Both Saturn and Mars are associated with people who perform heavy physical labor. As a rule, Saturn laborors are dealing with large animals or moving earth, dirt, stone, brick. Mars folks on the other hand are bearing sharp objects like swords, spears, razors, saws, or knives. Mars folk also get to work with fire.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ca_downloads.html

....
Best,

Pam

Hi Pam:

I always think of Mars as carpenters as well but used it as an additional sig. in that chart above since it was prominant and the timing seemed to work out correctly. I wonder where Rex Bills gets all his sources? I also have Lehman's *traditional* rulership book. She of course gives carpenters to Mars too. But interestingly, she gives Saturn to *ship* carpenters. I'll have to think on that to try to figure why.

Thanks for the link to the CA download. I have books 1 & 2, but it would be great to have it on my computer for faster searches. Yes, I am one of those that find his language a bit difficult at times but I was able to make out most of it. I haven't read them both cover to cover, mostly bits and pieces but over the years, probably most of it. I need to go back over it.

You mentioned watchmakers. I would have thought of Saturn & Mercury for watchmaking using my logical mind (Mercury because of its tiny size and delicate detail - Saturn because it rules time & time keepers).

- - I just looked in Bills' book, and he gives watchmakers & repairers to: Saturn, Capricorn & Uranus as well as (Leo & Mars). It varies, I understand to describe the particular thing/situation. For example, Venus would rule the art or sculpture but Saturn, the stone it is sculpted from, Mars the sculpting tool used, etc.

Trish

Hi, Trish

I really don't know where Bills came up with his material. That's a good question. I've just been using Lilly as a gold standard for so long that I really haven't bothered with other sources so much. I figure I only have so many years in this life to learn astrology as well as I want to do it, so I have honed down my resource material to the most effective sources and left the rest go. The only problem with being open to as many sources as possible is when it begins to interfere with actual performance. In my experience, more sources yield more signifcators, which in turn lead to false "yes" answers. . . and more inaccurate predictions.

I can only guess that Lilly gives Mars to watchmakers because clockworks are made from metal, and metalwork involves fire. Your guess is as good as mine on the Saturn/shipmaker question!

I make better progress with my horary astrology when I make predictions on charts where the answer is not known, then most often on a list like this, I can politely pester the querent till I find out the outcome. The kind of feeback I get from that exchange is invaluable.

Here's to more useful exchanges!

Best,

Pam

Hi again Pam:

We digressed from the initial difference of opinion on this question (whether such a question should be asked) and I had a question for you.

I don't view this particular question above as trivial since I myself have been in the place where I wished I could know when a repairman was actually going to come so that I could go about my business rather than being tied to the house waiting which phone repairmen, the cable man, etc., commonly do. They often won't give you a time window except somewhere between 9 AM and 5 PM. Sometimes they don't even show up after you've waited all day and they reschedule you! So I think the question is valid because it is sparked by a real interest or need to know. Especially if she (the "friend" who asked this) had somewhere she really needed to go.

That leads me to my question. Relying on Lilly, as you do, do you not find his question about who took his fish to be trivial, even if sparked by a real interest. I mean, by the time he could have found the culprit the fish may have been consumed or too old to want to consume. The first time I saw that in his book, I was amazed at the work he would put into such a (what I thought at that time *silly*) question. Would just like to hear how you differentiate that from this question.

Best,

Trish