Does this have influence: either a weak helper or a 'good enemy'?

I opt for the "good enemy"! Jupiter is still Jupiter, benevolent in its essential nature, and although there's nothing like "a honest abductor" of course, it could (in these circumstances) show someone who's about to make a "fair deal" - take the money and release the captive Ps. I'm seeing Jupiter as someone who's "running the show" here, as it disposits all those planets... Or could it represent a foreign account where the money should go? Anyway, let's hope for the best :-)

If the planets are received by Jupiter, that might be a good thing...BUT, Jupiter is in fall. Does this have influence: either a weak helper or a 'good enemy'?

Hi Gunhilde,
the way I see it, a fallen planet is weak and has little power to act. If that planet rules the 8th then I'm inclined to believe that this situation has little strength to rob the captive of life. If I saw the lord 8th strong and afflicting the quesited's sig', *especially* if the quesited's sig' received it, I'd be more inclined to think that death would ensue. Here, Jupiter is weak and receives Mercury so I feel that the inclination to kill the captive isn't part of this equation. I have to admit though that I'm flying with rusty goggles here so I just hope I'm right.

Cheers, and thanks for your imput.
Pete

I opt for the "good enemy"! Jupiter is still Jupiter, benevolent in its essential nature, and although there's nothing like "a honest abductor" of course, it could (in these circumstances) show someone who's about to make a "fair deal" - take the money and release the captive Ps. I'm seeing Jupiter as someone who's "running the show" here, as it disposits all those planets... Or could it represent a foreign account where the money should go? Anyway, let's hope for the best :-)

Ema, hi - and thanks for weighing in,
I have to admit I'm intrigued by Jupiter in this chart. He rules the 7th (open enemies), the 8th (death) and 11th (freedom from captivity). He holds dominion over all of these things but he's fallen, which suggests he either has no power to harm (or help for that matter), or he has fallen on difficult times and he's desperate. He receives Mercury into dignity- as well as the Sun and Mars - and from this I'm inclined to think that he wants to treat the captive well and not cause him harm. I think that whoever the Sun and Mars are in this chart, they are taking their instruction from Jupiter and that Jupiter has said "scare him but don't hurt him."
When Mercury reaches 9* Sag' he conjoins the antiscion degree of Jupiter and I believe that will be a big turning point in this scenario. I just hope it means the release of the captive after any ransom has been paid. (Mercury rules 2nd and Joop rules 11th).

Cheers,
Pete

Hi Pete:
Nov. 25th.

Ah. Thanks Trish.

I was looking at your chart again and thought since this is him and the enemy 7th, of turning the chart and looking at it from the kidnappers view as well.
I think there is an argument here that the Sun is the police/authorities and that his Mercury moving into Cazimie is a rescue by one in authority. In the kidnappers chart, sun rules 10th.

Um, I don't quite follow this. If we place the 7th on the cusp of the ascendant, we get an ascendant of 0* Sag and I don't quite get how the Sun rules 10th....?

Also, did you notice that the kidnapper's ruler is opposing the part of death?

The part of Death is at 27 Cancer and change and I see that the antiscion degree of the Sun and Mercury is 27 Capricorn. You just made me gulp because I have no idea whether the opposition is "better" than the conjunction!

Pete

Pete wrote: Um, I don't quite follow this. If we place the 7th on the cusp of the ascendant, we get an ascendant of 0* Sag and I don't quite get how the Sun rules 10th....?

If you turn the chart, looking at the derived 10th, (in the turned chart), it is ruled by Leo. And then looking at the derived 12th, it is ruled by Venus which is approaching Jupiter.

Also, I must be calculating Part of Death differently, as my software puts the Part of Death at 23:57 Cancer!

... Edit:

I just checked. I am using Placidus and you are using Regio. That's why our parts of Death are different.

Trish

If you turn the chart, looking at the derived 10th, (in the turned chart), it is ruled by Leo. And then looking at the derived 12th, it is ruled by Venus which is approaching Jupiter.

Oh derr! Yes you're quite right, but then we're looking at the situation from the viewpoint of the abductor(s) are we not? I'm unclear as to how this can tell us any more about the abductee's fate. Care to elaborate?

... Edit:

I just checked. I am using Placidus and you are using Regio. That's why our parts of Death are different.

I suspected as much Trish. I was using the degree calculated by Solar Fire v5, set with Regio'. I must say, 23 Cancer looks far less worrying. It's frustrating that one of the more crucial Parts is derived from an intermediate house cusp and therefore will differ depending on the house system. The P.o.D derived from Regiomontanus is more descriptive in this case but I'm still unclear as to the possible meaning of it.

Again, thanx.
Pete

Hi, Pete

Thank you for sharing your predictions to the querent about this chart. Your remarks were very diplomatic, to the point, thoughtful, and lucid.

I support your conclusion that there really is not much cause for building up the querent's hopes for a postive answer within her two-week time frame from reading this chart.

I told her further that the situation was in a delicate balance and I felt that either he would try escape but be retaken, or that he would be handed over to someone else and moved to a more hidden location. Can you see how I reached this conclusion?

Oh, yes absolutely. Lilly gives this same prediction nearly word for word in his twelfth-house material about "when would he be released?" Mercury leaves combustion by the Sun and moves to Mars posited in the seventh, Lord of the twelfth. Affliction by a malefic in the seventh, recapture. The twelfth is traditionally a more "hidden" house, and is also used to represent captivity, albeit of usually a more institutional nature such as a prison.

I have been thinking again about the antiscion; actually, I would be more inclined to see it as a postitive sign if it were Mercury (the quesited) antiscion some significant cusp rather than Jupiter (the querent's wife or the captor). One of the very discouraging things about the chart is that I am not able to find an aspect that signifies the ultimate return of the quesited. Perhaps the chart must be seen from the literal phrasing of the question--the return of the captive will not take place within two weeks.

It would be nice to be wrong, though! I hope you will kindly keep us up to date about the outcome of these events.

All my best,

Pam

Pete wrote:

If you turn the chart, looking at the derived 10th, (in the turned chart), it is ruled by Leo. And then looking at the derived 12th, it is ruled by Venus which is approaching Jupiter.

Oh derr! Yes you're quite right, but then we're looking at the situation from the viewpoint of the abductor(s) are we not? I'm unclear as to how this can tell us any more about the abductee's fate. Care to elaborate?


Pete

Well, since it is a situation where you have a struggle between the open enemy and the querent, the victim here, I thought it might be helpful to see who's side may prevail.

I think his captivity is shown clearly here, he is in the enemy's clutches, in the 7th and combust. But the combustion is nearing cazimie. I know Pam said its still combustion but if it were Cazimie, he wouldn't be a victim would he? So perhaps it described the current situation at the time, but also where it was headed by being mere minutes from Cazimie.

Also, Mercury is trining his own 4th cusp. That may be positive testimony of his return home.

When turning the chart to view the enemy, (the kidnapper's) chart, it shows me that he just recently secretly kidnapped the victim just before the question was asked.

Now excuse me if I offer up some modern astrology -- Pluto rules kidnapping and kidnappers as well as Neptune which is a secondary ruler. Interestingly, in the kidnapper's chart, the moon is in its fall, in his (the kidnapper's 12th), and *separating* from a sextile to Pluto (kidnapping), showing the kidnapping. Pluto falls in the kidnapper's 2nd house of possessions/finances.

Venus rules the kidnappers' 12th house. If the Sun, which Mercury is moving towards in 'Cazimie', is indeed the government authority (10th ruler), this may be positive of course for the victim, but bad for the kidnapper, especially with his own 12th ruler, Venus moving towards him. Also, the moon's last aspect is a square to Neptune, in the kidnapper's end of matter 4th house showing a bad ending for him rather than the victim.

Saturn in the victim's chart rules 10th, of government. Jupiter is separating from a trine to Saturn and I would read that as Jupiter trying to evade Saturn in the chart. Jupiter is in fall with no help from its dispositor. Jupiter opposes the Part of Death, and its dispositor, Saturn sextiles Part of Death. Mercury makes no aspect to it.

The worse thing I see in the chart has already taken place, and that was the moon sextile Pluto while falling in the victim's chart in the 8th house. But that could (in modern astrology) be showing injury - not necessarily death to the victim while over powering him during the past kidnapping event.

Maybe I'm just trying to hard to see a positive outcome for the victim. But I'm just considering all angles here.

Its very late and I'm afraid I've rambled a bit. Hope its intelligible.

Trish

Hi Trish

I had a response to a question you asked in your previous post on this thread:

I immediately took notice of how similiar this chart is to one I just recently asked myself. And I thought, if death were being shown in that chart, would it not be present in my chart as well?

There may have been several questions asked around the same time with a similar ascendant, but uness the question specifically requires information about life or death, there is no need to look for it on the chart.

In this case, the nature of the question (an absent person apparently kidnapped) and the phrasing of the question regarding "safety"--a veiled way of phrasing a question about the condition, life and vitality of the quesited--both require that we, as the doctors say, "rule out" death on the chart. Any chart for an absent person demands that we check to make sure they are alive, and what their current condition is.

Other times we look for death are when the querent specifically asks, and on decumbiture charts. When someone asks about the outcome of surgery, I usually look for death just because of the implied risk involved in going under the knife. Although signs of death may abound on the chart of any given question, it is really only important to examine them in the questions that demand an answer about life and death.

In decumbiture, we want to see three signs of death and no signs of recovery before we judge the chart to predict death. The last aspect indicating death to perfect chronologically would be the one to use for timing.

Hope this is useful!

Best,

Pam

I would say he is not close to his house. Maybe even in another city.
Close to the water, or in a dark, hidden place, not many houses around.
The timing of two weeks seens a little optimistic. I would expect the minimun in 8 days after the question, but that don?t seen likely.

I think it is most probable a longer period, like a month.

Hi, Trish

Thank you for your discussion. What do you predict from the chart? Will the quesited return to his wife in two weeks, and will he be "safe"--I assume that means "alive and unharmed"?

As for me, I would say the answer given by the chart is no. The quesited will not return in the two week time frame, and even if he is alive, he is not completely "unharmed" by his captivity.

I would be interested to hear your conclusions.

Best,

Pam

Hi Pam,

I tend to agree with your conclusions. I doubt that he'll be released in the 2 week time frame - even though Mercury is moving quite fast, the Moon is only slightly faster than average. As for the second part of the question, a lot depends on the definition of the word "safe". Of course being safe isn't the same thing as being unharmed, but it is a world apart from being dead too, and right now I think the family would settle for him returning alive. What are your thoughts on that? Lilly,
on p.156 of C.A., while
interpreting a preceding figure, asks if "one absent be dead or alive" and discusses conjunctions, oppositions or translations of light between the significators (lord 1 and Moon) and planets in or ruling the 6th and/or 8th houses. None of those conditions obtain here, so I'm inclined to believe him to be alive. Also, on page 322, while discussing whether a thing stolen is alive or dead, he talks of the Moon, and whether or not she applies to the lord of the 8th house from her (in this case Mercury, lord 1st), or if her ruler applies to the same lord, or as a last resort if the lord of the 8th applies to the lord of the 8th from the Moon. Again, none of this obtains here, even though the one warning bell is that Mercury - the quesited's sig and lord of the 8th from the Moon applies to Mars, the lord of the Moon. This is the converse of the second condition above (the Moon's lord applying to the 8th from the Moon). What I'm conscious of and I'm trying to keep in the forefront of my mind are the rules that Lilly sets out, and none of the rules concerning death are present in this chart. He doesn't mention combustion by the lord of the 4th, or the quesited's sig' applying to lord of the 12th, as Mercury will eventually do here, so I have to conclude that the querent is alive and will remain so.

Thoughts?

I just want to take this opportunity to once again thank you and Trish and Yuzuru and anyone else for your helpful ideas. This is a tough one.

Cheers,
Pete