cor scorpii wrote:I just want to congratulate Steven for his accurate analysis of the mystery chart - great job, and it shows clearly to which extent the traditional astrology is capable of giving clear, unambiguous information about someone's life.

Steven, it is quite amazing to me, how it?s possible to tell so much about someone without even knowing who they are. But I guess this is the true desire of Astrology. This is what distinguishes those astrologers who use hindsight and those who have true foresight.

I was directed to this thread in quest of an answer about the possible strength of an essentially detrimented planet. The planet which has been talked about is Saturn so I focus on this planet.

Saturn is detriment in Leo. Now we don?t know who this is or what they achieved in their life. But going on what has been said before, Saturn here in this chart has a number of accidental dignities.


As you said it is in the 11th, but it is also direct, and swift in motion, Jupiter and Mars is Oriental and it is free from combustion. These on there own amount to a number of points which allow it to be a free and autonomous planet with its own power. I am not sure how it has terms and triplicity though my table has it in the triplicity of Sun and Terms of Venus, with those planets not in Saturn?s.

Now obviously, the domicile Mars in the house that it rules in the chart is the real power broker with Jupiter conjunct and sextile the ascendant ruler, as well as chart dispositor Mercury.

Of course Mars is ruler of second, but ruler of 7th too. So cash may have been spent or made through allies and enemies.

Venus:

Another planet in FALL and in traditionally dire 12th house, unter the Sun?s beams is saved by certain countering factors.

It does have an essential dignity: that of triplicity. Triplicity gives this Venus some counter effect against being in Fall, as it is a strong essential dignity. Secondly Venus is also direct and swift in motion. And thirdly in partile sextile with Jupiter, counted as accidental dignity.



Ok I have to guess don?t I. Going on Mars the most essentially dignified planet: this person is in business, produces weapons, armaments or anything involving the traditional business of Scorpio, undertaker, secret business.

Jupiter then receives some accidental dignity like Saturn despite being peregrine, and so I will say that Jupiter expands Mars?s influence, making this person fairly wealthy.

Mercury is essentially dignified, but unfortunate in other ways. So I will say that this person was clever and mentally astute, but not able to make anything from that knowledge as it is accidentally not helped at all. They must have been respected for their mind but kept their thoughts and knowledge away from the business.


Then we have Saturn semi-square Venus. Venus represents the person and his beginning. Coming from a weak place. Would have been supported by all the cash in the second house in his fight (semi-square) with an accidentally dignified Saturn. Saturn though is not really an enemy but a friend in the 11th ruler of 4th probably family... which reinforces the 7th to 2nd alliance.


So with the essential debility of Saturn and Venus I have to go on to say that this person is not respected either for his own self, or for his family, they don?t have strength on their own. Accidentally then he had the opportunity for gaining many of the benefits from Saturn, political, governmental, support from institutions, churches, from the Conservative establishment. He gained power then without having either the skill or right to wield this power.


Now the reason for my conclusions are drawn from two modern examples both with Saturn in Leo in detriment, but both of who achieved great political power:

Adolf Hitler and Bill Clinton. They both have this position. They both achieved great power and political office simply through the accidental dignity of this planet.

But essential debility is the reason that they were both disgraced and lost power without "dignity" so to speak. Ego of course came into their political career. In Hitler?s case: megalomania, in Clinton?s case: self-satisfaction in office.

So to finish: Mars is both accidentally and essentially greatly dignified. He would have started off with some cash and made exponentially more. All above board and honest, because of the essential dignity there.

Mercury rules the 9th and is also essentially strong, which indicates a definite international dimension and interest in religion and politics. (check out the outer planet conjunction there.)

MC ruler and Ascendant ruler both in 12th= not famous. But nevertheless powerful due to all of those accidental dignities.

Nice to try this out, like the forum. Merry Xmas all.

question from a bewildered beginner:
having read Deb's tutorial here on Skyscript re Lily's 5 degree orb of influence for house cusps , i thought both Mars and Jupiter would be interpreted as affecting the third house, rather than the 2nd. Could someone elaborate? thank you.

northernlights wrote:question from a bewildered beginner:
having read Deb's tutorial here on Skyscript re Lily's 5 degree orb of influence for house cusps , i thought both Mars and Jupiter would be interpreted as affecting the third house, rather than the 2nd. Could someone elaborate? thank you.

Mars and Jupiter are in the 2nd house according to Alcabitius and Whole Sign houses, the two preferred house systems in medieval astrology.

hi,
as Kate Winslet is back on the spotlight, I think it is interesting to notice that she has a very similar chart to the one on mystery chart.

She also has a libra asc with venus in virgo and Saturn in Leo in the 11th.

Instead of having a new moon in virgo, she has one in libra

http://www.astrotheme.fr/en/portraits/qxhHV3D7J29a.htm

question from a bewildered beginner:
having read Deb's tutorial here on Skyscript re Lily's 5 degree orb of influence for house cusps , i thought both Mars and Jupiter would be interpreted as affecting the third house, rather than the 2nd. Could someone elaborate? thank you.

In the chart as posted the third cusp (Placidus) holds Sagittarius, but Mars and Jupiter are in Scorpio. The so-called five-degree rule holds if the planets and the cusp are in the same sign. In this case, Jupiter and Mars are therefore in the second house.

For clarification, the "rule" is that the house begins five degrees before the cusp, if that space is in the same sign as the cusp. The cusp is the most sensitive point in the house not the beginning. This idea dates from Ptolemy, but Ptolemy did not mention sign lines*. Not all traditionalists agree with this, and modern astrologers use the cusps as the beginnings of houses.

My experience, which is not universal, is that the rule works pretty well, and allows for a certain birth time fudge factor. I would not ignore it's potential for influencing the earlier house, however.

Tom

*These several places are the sign on the angle of the ascendant, from the fifth degree above the horizon, to the 25th degree below it. - Ashmand translation p 88 Book III

This whole topic gets a lot more involved and if anyone is interested, deserves a thread of its own.

I think that this person which you posted must have psychih powers.

Ruler of 1 in 12. And that is venus on 29 degree Scorpio ! Strong point of vision. Sai Baba has i think Sunc on 29 Scorpio. In the same time ruler of 9 = vision is Mercury conjunct Venus ruler of AC.

Dogmatik and visionar.

Vindex wrote:I think that this person which you posted must have psychih powers.

Ruler of 1 in 12. And that is venus on 29 degree Scorpio ! Strong point of vision. Sai Baba has i think Sunc on 29 Scorpio. In the same time ruler of 9 = vision is Mercury conjunct Venus ruler of AC.

Dogmatik and visionar.

Because Tom didn't mention such "powers" in the thread "Mistery chart no.17 revealed" I think the person represented by the chart simply didn't possess them.
Anyway, the12th house planetary placement may signify these "powers" but only in the confused world of modern astrology.
BTW, Venus is in Virgo, not Scorpio.
It might be good for you to thoroughly read the thread I've mentioned and especially, Steven's delineation of this nativity. You'll notice how accurate it was. And he also never mentioned "psychic powers", but the probability of high education(rulers of the 1st conjunct ruler of the 9th).

well, the best solution would be to asked the author has that person psychig powers or not ?

ruler of 1 and 9 in conjunction in twelwe house can indicate on such things.

Sure, you can ask Tom.
BTW, the person we are talking about was [edited by yuzuru], as you've probably seen after reading Tom's post.
The message I'm trying to convey is that the notion of "psychic powers" as somehow alligned with 12th house placement of a planet(ruler of the 1st, to be precise) is at odds with the teachings of real astrology, and we happen to write in the traditional forum, don't we?
12th is the house of sorrow,misery, self - undoing, secret enemies,tribulations, losses, isolation, diseases, etc...and this man experienced a good deal of some of those during his life.

no i didn t said that based just on their position in 12. i wrote that ruler of 1 and 9 are in conjunction on hih degrees. I think that TA psychig things puts in house 9 ?

It can any sort.

Before I look at the answer, I'll add something I noticed in hopes it is close to the truth.

The ruler of 7th, Mars, goes conjunct Jupiter. Mars also rules whomever he married, and Mars dignified shows how profitable and advantageous it was.

He married out of convenience and his social condition at the moment was the reason for it. The square of the nodes to Venus (ruler of 8th) in fall to the nodes shows how's he risen to power with only but a little. His brothers and accquainteds benefited from it in some huge way, as can be seen from Jupiter's presence near the cusp of 3rd (Jupiter is still going to the next sign, so there is loss for him due to the state of not being in rulership yet, at some point I guess he was in full control of his brother's and sister's lives, maybe they worked for him?)

Due to the conjunction of the Moon and the Sun he was emotionally self sufficient, with a strong ego drive and did things ordely and in a logical fashion, not caring about love, feelings or such things.

He was very well knonw for his material achieviment though whatever work he had (North Node in 10th receiving trine from Jupiter in 2nd) and of course, that was probably related to money as already pointed. He was somewhat cruel in the way he pursuit things, did not care at all about how to gain as long as he gained, and that's what I think is the meaning of this much planets in 12 finding an outlet in his 2nd (gain and possession was his purpose, his pleasure and twist, as Venus is still a little bit far from the cusp of 1st, but still trines Jupiter and separates, a trait of personality he already had since born).

He had no friends, or better yet, he did not consider none a friend, and dealt with them in a extremely distant and restrictive way. Never has him been done any favor by those that was near him professionaly (and never would he accept it) for his 11th house Saturn shows that he always pays back whatever he receives, and expect exactly the same, although the condition of detriment of Saturn shows that some of these "persons" did betray his trust (Saturn detrimental or in fall says others take advantage, in dignity, you take advantage).

SN presence in the 4th shows that his roots was always a reason for pain for him, and shows trouble in the famlily as well.

Hi, I edited cor scorpioni post because he tells the result of the mystery chart... although everybody already know the result, future generations may like to try without a peek