jerd wrote:My question is suppose Jupiter in Aries and the ruler (Mars) in Scorpio; would you consider that there is a relation between Jupiter and Mars due to the like-engirding (same ruler) principle?

My brief and boring answer is that I don't know. There are some aspects (in the non-technical sense!) of Hellenistic astrology that I haven't explored yet, and this is one of them.

johannes susato wrote:Could you quote (in books & chapters please!) one or more of these implications you found in Masha'allah's Significations?

It's a very short text, and examples are found throughout the relevant chapters (pp. 372-380 in Dykes's translation). For instance, in Ch. 8 (p. 372) Masha'allah states that when the ruler of the Asc is in the 2nd, the native will gain or lose wealth by means of a person represented by the sign it is in. When it is in the 3rd, his brothers will be greater than the native. When in the 4th, the native will be subjected to a lawsuit from greater men (the 4th being the 7th from the 10th); etc.

(These are not verbatim quotations from Dykes, but looking at the Latin text at http://warburg.sas.ac.uk/pdf/fah765mesahw.pdf I believe I have got the gist.)

Thank you very much, Martin!

Jogi wrote:This is the way modern astrologers want you to persuade that Aries = Mars = 1th house - that all those things mean the same. And most of them make no difference in their delineations between the 1th house and Aries or between Mars and the 1th and so on. In this way reading a chart is like wading through swampland on a foggy day. Everything looks the same and means the same no matter in which way you look at it.

Thanks for your explanation of this kind of ABC!

Perhaps the problems in your understanding of Zoller explaining Morin vanish if you consider this:

1. The planets in their essentiality are the universal causes of all accidents.
2. Their emanations are accidentally formed by the houses.
3. Nevertheless the planets remain the causes of all accidents.
4. Thus they connect the significations of the houses they rule with the significations of the houses they dwell in.
5. Accidentally the ruled houses are sometimes the 'causes', sometimes the anticipating or foregoing accidents of the accidents accidentally formed by the house and the universal cause and power of the dwelling and ruling planet in both their co-operation, and (I am really sorry, Jogi! ) vice versa - but ever the meanings or significations of all involved houses are to be connected in a reasonable way with the planet and its status coelestis.

Johannes

Now I found another example from Zoller.

He gives an example chart:
- Mars conjunct Venus in the 2nd
- Aries on the cusp of the 9th
- Scorpio on the cusp of the 4th
- Capricorn on the cusp of the 6th

He says: ?And one can say that the 9th contributes to the 2nd ? the native`s finances are obtained through travelling and lecturing and through 9th house activities related to spiritual issues. Mars is also connected to the 4th ? to the family, the land, the property, the dwelling, all contribute to the martian experience in the 2nd house. [?] And the 6th house (the native`s skills) contribute to the financial well-being.?

For me this means that the houses are the causes or the origins for the native`s income ? which correspond with Morin`s opinion.
Whereas in Zoller`s examples given in my last post, the ruler and not the house was the cause or the origin. For me it sounds that Zoller seems to contradict himself. And this makes things a bit fuzzy to me (and additionally English is not my native language).


@ Johannes
Again our posts overlapped .

1. The planets in their essentiality are the universal causes of all accidents.
2. Their emanations are accidentally formed by the houses.
3. Nevertheless the planets remain the causes of all accidents.
4. Thus they connect the significations of the houses they rule with the significations of the houses they dwell in.
5. Accidentally the ruled houses are sometimes the 'causes', sometimes the anticipating or foregoing accidents of the accidents accidentally formed by the house and the universal cause and power of the dwelling and ruling planet in both their co-operation, and (I am really sorry, Jogi! Very Happy ) vice versa - but ever the meanings or significations of all involved houses are to be connected in a reasonable way with the planet and its status coelestis.

Johannes - you`re killing me . I`ll try to consider what you wrote - thank you.

But after all: maybe it would be very interesting to try all this on some examples!?

Best wishes
J?rgen

Jogi wrote: And the 6th house (the native`s skills) [. . . ]

This sentence is very astonishing and sounds post-classically . . .
Is this really Robert Zoller?

Jogi wrote: Now I found another example from Zoller.

He gives an example chart:
- Mars conjunct Venus in the 2nd
- Aries on the cusp of the 9th
- Scorpio on the cusp of the 4th
- Capricorn on the cusp of the 6th

Jogi, are these the facts Zoller is giving or do you outline his example chart?

By the way: This IS an example we are trying, isn't it?

Johannes

I have a hard time understanding Zoeller's writing style, too, and I've also heard the same thing from people whose first language is English, so don't feel too bad. I think it would be much clearer to see with an example chart.

To throw a little more into the stew from Ibn Ezra (love him, and he's so clear when he explains things):

Masha'allah said that if the ruler of the second house is in the rising sign one will gain profit and wealth without effort, but if the ruler of the rising sign is in the second house, one will work hard to pursue money...'

I'm not quite sure how or if that correlates with realisation and outcome (I thought those words were the same or similar in meaning), but it makes sense.

Can we get a native English speaker to clarify, perhaps?

Olivia, do you quote Ibn Ezra, who quotes Masha'allah? Please, where can I find this quotation, which is 1:1 Morin? Unbelievable, it is just Morin's example of lord of the first in the tenth and vice versa, quoted by me above.

It's in the ARHAT translation (by Meira Epstein, edited by Rob Hand) of Ibn Ezra's The Book of Nativities and Revolutions, on page 36.

Thank you very much, Olivia!

Would you mind to give me a section or chapter? I don't own the English translation and would like to read the latin version.

The Latin isn't as good as the Hebrew, but there aren't any translation notes pointing to discrepancies between the texts in this part, so it's probably fine.

The Second House, subsection: [Additional Considerations for Wealth]

For anyone who does have the translation, it's page 34, not 36 - I mistyped.

Very kind of you, Olivia. I'll try the Latin, and this quotation doesn't seem to be too sophisticated so it will prabably do, you are right.