I agree with both MarkC and Gjiada upon the last posts. When comets are mentioned there is the tendency to focus on the culmination, completion, death and departure of things rather than their arrival and birth. Obviously it is easier to pick out things that are fully manifest and familiar to all. However, any new seeding will go through a period of germination and it could take time before we wake up to spotting it and the word gets around. The effects of Lulin could be more obvious in hindsight when we get into 2010 or later.

Wasn't it Newton who was born when Halley's comet was at perihelion and died when the comet returned? And Tycho Brahe who predicted the rise of a prince in the North upon the observation of a Supernova. My point being that everything doesn't happen at once. I seem to recall comets being 'blamed' for influenca, but not earthquakes or explosions.

We might take note some interesting intonations of the present, but at the same time it could be wrong to disturb matters as they are in the making. Big projects often go through stages of secrecy and confidentiality before hitting the headlines, so let's just keep our eyes open.

I thought I should drop a link to the Skyscript feature on Comets, in case anyone has missed that. It is an interesting thought that when Hale Bopp visited in 1997, we saw the Labour party take power (after 18 years of Conservative rule).

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/comet.html

200 beached pilot whales in Australia - could that be an echo of either the eclipse, the comet, or both? http://english.sina.com/world/p/2009/0302/222497.html

It is an interesting thought that when Hale Bopp visited in 1997, we saw the Labour party take power (after 18 years of Conservative rule).

Indeed and a few months after that the death of Princess Diana.

Wasn't it Newton who was born when Halley's comet was at perihelion and died when the comet returned?

No. The comet appeared during Newton's lifetime in 1682 (b 1643, d 1727)

I think you are confusing him with the American writer Mark Twain. He predicted his death at the return of the comet:

I came in with Halley's Comet in 1835. It is coming again next year (1910), and I expect to go out with it. It will be the greatest disappointment of my life if I don't go out with Halley's Comet. The Almighty has said, no doubt: "Now here are these two unaccountable freaks; they came in together, they must go out together."
- Mark Twain, a Biography

Mark Twain, born Nov. 30, 1835.
Last perihelion of Halley's comet, Nov. 10, 1835.
Mark Twain died, April 21, 1910.
Perihelion of Halley's comet, April 20, 1910.

Thus the lifetime of the great writer was nearly identical (the difference being exactly fifteen days) with the cycle of the Comet.

One of my favourite episodes of comet-lore relates to the Roman Emperor Vespasian. In 79 AD Vespasian was laying siege to Jerusalem. According to the Roman historians Cassius Dio and Suetonius, several astrologers had predicted the death of the Emperor after the apperance of a comet. The Emperor, steadfastly dismissed such predictions and developed an amusing reply he constantly repeated:

''This hairy star is not meant for me. It must be meant for my enemy, the King of the Parthians, for he is hairy, while I am bald."

You have to admire Vespasian's creative interpretation! Unfortunately, the gloomy predictions proved correct in this instance and Vespasian died shortly afterwards. Naturally, this incident only served to reinforce the existing public perception that the appearance of a bright comet was an ill omen for any Emperor.

Well in literature there are lucky comets. The "star of Julius", the Venusian comet who was the sign that Julius soul was received between Gods, and obviously Magi's star, the star which accompanied Jesus birth.
Marsilio Ficino wrote the famous sermon, but he was mentioning a very ancient tradition, it was Origen in the second century AD to mention that the star mentioned in Luke Gospel was a comet.

Hi Margherita,

Yes I have been reading about all this. Octavian ( later Emperor Augustus) tried to link his family association to Caesar and the comet to boost his political capital. He even had coins struck commemorating what became called 'Caeser's comet'. In modern political terms we would probably call this 'spin'.

I would question how 'Venusian' the comet really was though. After all it was followed by a bloody civil war. I am sure followers of Anthony and Cleopatra would have taken a very different view of things. However, I would agree , when Augustus finally did take sole power it did mark a period of extended peace in the Empire in relative terms.

The fact the Star of Bethlehem could have been a comet as suggested by Origen is certainly an intriguing discussion. Maybe one to save for a thread nearer Christmas...

On balance , the bulk of Christian writers take a very gloomy view of Comets. They usually make the Star of Bethlehem a special case if they see it as a comet. However, some of the Protestants leaders like Luther did rather recruit comets to their cause when it suited them to predict the demise of the Catholic Church. Similarly, in the English civil war comets were used by both Royalists and Roundheads to predict the imminent downfall of the other camp.

Getting back to possible Christian references to comets there are other scriptures that look a good deal less cheery than Mathew. For example, the reference to the Star Wormwood referred to in the book of Revelation.

And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." (Revelation 8:10, 11 - KJB).

Naturally, there are numerous interpretations by Christian writers on this but some certainly do regard it as a reference to a future meteor or comet.

However, I agree with your basic point that some comets are more positive than others. For example, the great Comet Arend-Roland which was discovered in November 1956 and became brighter during the first few months of 1957. The time frame is quite close to the formation of the European Union with the signing of the Treaty of Rome on March 25th 1957.

MarkC wrote: Yes I have been reading about all this. Octavian ( later Emperor Augustus) tried to link his family association to Caesar and the comet to boost his political capital. He even had coins struck commemorating what became called 'Caeser's comet'. In modern political terms we would probably call this 'spin'.

Hello Mark,
here me back from the wonderful lecture by Deborah Houlding in Perugia, the birthplace of Placidus- I believe that Yuzuru shoud be very envious

About the star, surely Octavian was trying to consolidate the newborn Empire- he was the first Emperor in fact, but I believe there was more than this, it was what people believed.
From my ancient collection of marble inscriptions I can see that both Svetonius and Octavianus say that PEOPLE decided that Caesar' soul was taken in the sky by the comet appearing in the sky while Roma was celebrating Venus games.
Ancients were very attentive to omina and signs in the sky.

And Caesar had already used Venus star as his symbol. Gens Julia, Caesar family derived from Iulio, the latinized name of Ascanio, the son of Aeneas of Troy, who had Venus for mother.

So Octavianus played easy with these facts....

On balance , the bulk of Christian writers take a very gloomy view of Comets. They usually make the Star of Bethlehem a special case if they see it as a comet.

I agree, comets generally seem to have a negative meaning...

However, some of the Protestants leaders like Luther did rather recruit comets to their cause when it suited them to predict the demise of the Catholic Church. Similarly, in the English civil war comets were used by both Royalists and Roundheads to predict the imminent downfall of the other camp.

It's my main astrological theory in fact: I never see an astrologer writing different things about comets or great conjunctions or eclipses, what one says the other repeats using it against the enemy.
Many years ago Eco wrote the same in Focault Pendulum talking about Templars in MiddleAges. Maybe it is a common practise?

However, I agree with your basic point that some comets are more positive than others. For example, the great Comet Arend-Roland which was discovered in November 1956 and became brighter during the first few months of 1957. The time frame is quite close to the formation of the European Union with the signing of the Treaty of Rome on March 25th 1957.

Many don't see European Union as a positive fact, especially out of Continental Europe
In every case it was the same for the supernovae of 1600, they should carry a new golden age, Catholic or Reformed according the different authors

In every case eventually I found the famous method of judging the comet from the preceding syzygy as explained by his primeval source, Haly.

It seems to me that positions are the same mentioned by Cardano in my previous quote.
Again, Haly uses the syzygy because he is following Ptolemy (the picture comes in fact from Haly comment to Tetrabiblos) and the same does Cardano, and Campanella, and Brahe...

Margherita

From my ancient collection of marble inscriptions I can see that both Svetonius and Octavianus say that PEOPLE decided that Caesar' soul was taken in the sky by the comet appearing in the sky while Roma was celebrating Venus games.
Ancients were very attentive to omina and signs in the sky.

And Caesar had already used Venus star as his symbol. Gens Julia, Caesar family derived from Iulio, the latinized name of Ascanio, the son of Aeneas of Troy, who had Venus for mother.

Hi Margherita,

Thanks thats very interesting. Still, there is no doubt Octavian played on these associations very astutely for his own political ends.

The popularity idea of the idea of the soul ascending to the stars after death, a belief known as 'catasterism' is something we find a lot in Greek and Roman sources. In terms of the myths of the constellations for example we have the 'Catasterisms' of Eratosthenes as well as Porphyry in his 'On the Cave of the Nymphs' writing about the sidereal gates of the soul in the constellations Cancer and Capricorn.

However, as a Celt I cannot agree with the Roman notion that Caeser deserved a place in the heavens! For all Rome's wonderful literary culture and technical achievements we should never forget the Empire was built on warfare and human slavery and like the Borg in Star Trek 'assimilated' any culture that opposed it. Hence I have always rooted for Rome's greatest opponents such as Sparticus, Hannibal and Vercingetorix.

Many don't see European Union as a positive fact, especially out of Continental Europe

Its funny you mentioned this. I had been thinking of stating this myself but wasn't sure if EU scepticism had much of a foothold in Italy. Britain has tended to always have a strongly EU sceptic culture from the outset. Still, whatever its organizational shortcomings it surely hardly fits the title of a 'harbinger of doom' attached to so many comets?

I think perhaps oversimplification of these things is a pitfall.

I suppose that is a maxim for all our astrology.

Comets were associated with "change" and were heralds of some impending change. In most cases history tells us that these heralded changes had sweeping reprucussions.

It is fascinating that cultures as diverse as the Aztecs, Incas, Ancient Chinese, Indians and the Hellenistic world all had very similar associations in regards comets implying a change of Emperor or government.

But to judge every comet as a habringer of disaster is perhaps unfair. Like eclipses, is that judgment not rather based on the degrees it appears in? On the lord of those degrees or even planets to which the comet is attached, both bodily or by its tail?

Agreed.

I quite agree with Margherita that the method of judgment was to cast a chart of the lunation prior to the comet, or yearly revolution, or quarter and even month by month the lunation prior to the Sun's entrance into each sign!

I am grateful to Margherita for evidencing the importance of the lunation chart in assessing each comet.

For one, in both Ptolemy and later in Masha'allah we can read that the magnitude of the signification of an eclipse (for example) is relative to the magnitude of the obscuration of the eclipse. I think the same is applicable to comets. Is it reasonable to panic when every piece of space dust crosses our path? It is clear that the ancients had to rely on visibility and therefore the magnitude of that visibility. If a comet isn't visible to any extent with the unaided eye, then should we see this as some sort of omen?

I agree with you completely. I still find it very difficult to accept we need to give much consideration to comets which remain invisible or very dim to the naked eye. Ptolemy seems to be applying methods that only make sense with a consideration of the visual observation of a comet into account:

We must observe, further, for the prediction of general conditions, the comets which appear either at the time of the eclipse or at any time whatever; for instance, the so?called "beams," "trumpets," "jars," and the like, for these naturally produce the effects peculiar to Mars and to Mercury ? wars, hot weather, disturbed conditions, and the accompaniments of these; and they show, through the parts of the zodiac in which their heads appear and through the directions in which the shapes of their tails point, the regions upon which the misfortunes impend. Through the formations, as it were, of their heads they indicate the kind of the event and the class upon which the misfortune will take effect; through the time which they last, the duration of the events; and through their position relative to the sun likewise their beginning; for in general their appearance in the orient betokens rapidly approaching events and in the occident those that approach more slowly.

Tetrabiblos, Book II, Chapter 9

The visual approach is even clearer in Hephaistio of Thebes.

While I think the lunation chart can be very useful as a stand alone technique I wonder if its appropriate to just seek to superimpose a Comet on to this? Are we using the position of the comet at its time of discovery, its first point of visibility on earth or its perihelion? Because of their rapid movement across the heavens comets pose us difficulties which phenomena like Nova do not. So if we use a lunation chart are we plotting the progress of the comet across that chart? If we take the comet as frozen in time is that moment when it becomes discovered, naked eye visible or where it was at the time of a lunation chart? Also comets dont play by the same rules as planets. They are sometimes completely remote from the ecliptic with eccentric orbits. Projecting their position to to a horoscope can be problematic.

In any case a lunation chart is not going to tell us details such as the colour of the comet, its first appearance matutine or vespertine, its shape, direction of travel and sidereal background.

I still doubt the idea of working with all comets whether they become visible or not. There are thousands of cometary bodies in the solar system. It therefore seems inappropriate to consider them astrologically significant until they are naked eye visible.

Actually, this makes me wonder how astrologers agreed the location of a lunation chart before we had astronomers recorded as discovers? Presumably it was the previous lunation to a comet becoming visible? So like an Ingress chart this could be done from varying locations. Another point about relying on the date for an astronomical discovery of a comet by telescope is that these days there is often more than one astronomer involved with at least two time and places to look at. For example the co-discovered Comet Hale-Bopp. Do we locate the discovery chart in Arizona or New Mexico?

Hello Mark

Still, there is no doubt Octavian played on these associations very astutely for his own political ends.

No doubt indeed.
In fact some philosopher would write some centuries after that "religion is the opium of people".

as well as Porphyry in his 'On the Cave of the Nymphs' writing about the sidereal gates of the soul in the constellations Cancer and Capricorn.

Older, Homer talks about this cave too

However, as a Celt I cannot agree with the Roman notion that Caeser deserved a place in the heavens! For all Rome's wonderful literary culture and technical achievements we should never forget the Empire was built on warfare and human slavery and like the Borg in Star Trek 'assimilated' any culture that opposed it. Hence I have always rooted for Rome's greatest opponents such as Sparticus, Hannibal and Vercingetorix.

It's awfully OT, but I should disagree and protest here
The Roman Empire was so great because it could absorb and learn from all the cultures and religions and cults, and everybody was happy to live under the protection of Rome.
I recently wrote here. St. Paul, a native from Turkey can proudly write in his Letters "I'm a Roman citizen."

I am grateful to Margherita for evidencing the importance of the lunation chart in assessing each comet. However, I still find it difficult to accept that this is the whole approach. Ptolemy seems to be applying methods that only make sense with a consideration of the visual observation of a comet into account

But I completely agree with you...Lunation is not obviously the only factor astrologers took into consideration. As you wrote there are brilliance and direction of motion and declination and colour and so on.
For example the colour was very important since Nechempo Petosiris, so maybe it derives even from more ancient sources we have no written trace.
In every case latin literature is full with colours of comets.

But, there is a but. For followers of Ptolemy the sizygy was very important because according Ptolemy all the events are generated by the mutation of Sun and Moon, it's the general cause from which the others depend on.

Then I don't want to say that Ptolemy is right, but this is what he says and obviously the same for his followers like Cardano or Campanella or Haly who wrote the most famous comment to Tetrabiblos.

Then we can say what Steven mentioned, we should not forget the other approach, the Arab one with Ingresses and Great Conjunctions.

I don't believe they are opposite - in the practice everybody used both- I wrote many times, because my knowledge of astrology is founded on 1 or 2 ideas I try to mix every time

And I agree with Steven, that it's difficult write without oversimplification. In every case someone wrote that the things we remember in our life are just the ones we learn in the primary school, so eventually main points are just a few...

Actually, this makes me wonder how astrologers agreed the location of a lunation chart before we had astronomers recorded as discovers? Presumably it was the previous lunation to a comet becoming visible? So like an Ingress chart this could be done from varying locations.

This is a problem in fact. For me under a traditional point of view makes more sense to cast a chart when the comet is brilliant in the sky and I can see it, but for which location? Rome? Is it important for somebody else than me this location? So I cast the chart for the discovery, it solves a lot of problems... And in my opinion has some true

Anyway I don't think that there was a general agreement between astrologers, maybe every author used his own example.
Margherita

Hello Mark

Still, there is no doubt Octavian played on these associations very astutely for his own political ends.

No doubt indeed.
In fact some philosopher would write some centuries after that "religion is the opium of people".

as well as Porphyry in his 'On the Cave of the Nymphs' writing about the sidereal gates of the soul in the constellations Cancer and Capricorn.

Older, Homer talks about this cave too

However, as a Celt I cannot agree with the Roman notion that Caeser deserved a place in the heavens! For all Rome's wonderful literary culture and technical achievements we should never forget the Empire was built on warfare and human slavery and like the Borg in Star Trek 'assimilated' any culture that opposed it. Hence I have always rooted for Rome's greatest opponents such as Sparticus, Hannibal and Vercingetorix.

It's awfully OT, but I should disagree and protest here
The Roman Empire was so great because it could absorb and learn from all the cultures and religions and cults, and everybody was happy to live under the protection of Rome.
I recently wrote here. St. Paul, a native from Turkey can proudly write in his Letters "I'm a Roman citizen."

I am grateful to Margherita for evidencing the importance of the lunation chart in assessing each comet. However, I still find it difficult to accept that this is the whole approach. Ptolemy seems to be applying methods that only make sense with a consideration of the visual observation of a comet into account

But I completely agree with you...Lunation is not obviously the only factor astrologers took into consideration. As you wrote there are brilliance and direction of motion and declination and colour and so on.
For example the colour was very important since Nechempo Petosiris, so maybe it derives even from more ancient sources we have no written trace.
In every case latin literature is full with colours of comets.

But, there is a but. For followers of Ptolemy the sizygy was very important because according Ptolemy all the events are generated by the mutation of Sun and Moon, it's the general cause from which the others depend on.

Then I don't want to say that Ptolemy is right, but this is what he says and obviously the same for his followers like Cardano or Campanella or Haly who wrote the most famous comment to Tetrabiblos.

Then we can say what Steven mentioned, we should not forget the other approach, the Arab one with Ingresses and Great Conjunctions.

I don't believe they are opposite - in the practice everybody used both- I wrote many times, because my knowledge of astrology is founded on 1 or 2 ideas I try to mix every time

And I agree with Steven, that it's difficult write without oversimplification. In every case someone wrote that the things we remember in our life are just the ones we learn in the primary school, so eventually main points are just a few...

Actually, this makes me wonder how astrologers agreed the location of a lunation chart before we had astronomers recorded as discovers? Presumably it was the previous lunation to a comet becoming visible? So like an Ingress chart this could be done from varying locations.

This is a problem in fact. For me under a traditional point of view makes more sense to cast a chart when the comet is brilliant in the sky and I can see it, but for which location? Rome? Is it important for somebody else than me this location? So I cast the chart for the discovery, it solves a lot of problems... And in my opinion has some true

Anyway I don't think that there was a general agreement between astrologers, maybe every author used his own example.
Margherita

Hi Margherita,

So I cast the chart for the discovery, it solves a lot of problems...

Not necessarily if two people ( or three !) discover the comet. This happens quite a lot in astronomy. Looking at the 'Great Comets' of the last 100 years many have more than one astronomer (and location) attached to their discovery:

Comet Hale-Bopp 1997

Comet White-Ortiz-Bolelli 1970

Comet Ikeya-Zhang 1965

Comet Wilson-Hubbard 1961

Comet Arend-Roland 1956-7

Comet De Kock-Paraskevopoulos 1941

Comet Skjellerup-Maristany 1927

I still have a couple of questions which hopefully you or someone else can clear up about the traditional lunation chart. In particular, where are the charts located? Are the astrologers like Cardano etc simply placing the chart in their own location and drawing up houses for their country from that? So like an Ingress chart should a lunation chart be erected in various locations to obtain where its impact is greatest in the world?

Another question is about plotting comets on to a lunation chart. I see from the chart you displayed Tycho Brahe plotted the position of the Nova of 1572 on to his horoscope. In the examples you have studied was the same ever done for comets ? If so how was their movement across the heavens incorporated into an astrological delineation?

It would be very interesting to see how Tycho Brahe delineated the great comet of 1577. I am still unclear whether Brahe's prediction of a great military commander coming from the far north ( generally linked to Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden b 1594 ? d 1632) appeared in his astrological writing on the Nova of 1572 or the Comet of 1577?

Mark

The Roman Empire was so great because it could absorb and learn from all the cultures and religions and cults, and everybody was happy to live under the protection of Rome.

This is way off the topic of comets but I had to reply.

The question is what if you didn't want to live under the Pax Romanica? Take for example the one million Gauls who died during Caesars war of conquest or the further one million Gauls that were enslaved by the Romans. One historian has even suggested Caesar as a 'war criminal' as a result of a particular event in which Caesar massacred a camp of Germans who believed that at the time a ceasefire was in effect. I accept one cannot judge Ancient Rome by modern liberal democratic legalities but even by the rudimentary standards of his time Caesar fell far short of acceptable behaviour. Ironically, it was the Roman writer Tacitus who best summed up such views by getting the Pictish King Calgacus to state his opinion of the Roman occupation of his homeland ?Atque ubi solitudinum faciunt pacem appellant,? that is, ?They create a desolation and call it a peace.?