The best description of Jupiter I?ve recently read is in Michael Ward?s Planet Narnia read in companion with The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (the ?Jupiter book? in the Narnia series) by C. S. Lewis. Lewis shows us how Jupiter signifies pomp and glory and good-hearted, merciful rulers. A Jovial person in his highest form is ready to give his own life for his people. A real revelation for me was when Ward explained blood associated with the sanguine / Jovial temperament to be innocent blood, sacrificed for saving someone else. A merrier version of that bright Jovial red is Father Christmas, and in general Christmas is a very Jovial festival ? of giving gifts, having warm feelings toward each other, getting together and forgetting old resentments at least for a moment.

Humor could be Jovial in its most innocent and child-like form, like in Little House in Prairie, everyone laughing heartily at the end. But Monty Python is completely something else. ?Grown up humor? always has its darker side, and that?s the core of it ? combining absurd, even frightening things so that laugh is the only safe outlet. And that is not Jupiter, that?s Saturn. I cannot comment on clowns except that they usually have a tear painted on their faces and their mouth goes downward. People laugh when the clown makes something stupid or gets hurt ? Saturn again.

Jupiter is somehow too innocent and na?ve a figure for our cynic culture. Christianity and especially the New Testament are full of Jovial ideas and symbols:

5 ?Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
6 ?Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
7 ?Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
8 ?Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
9 ?Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matthew 5)

In modern astrology Jupiter is seen signifying excess and unrestraint, but traditionally it?s completely the opposite: it signifies modesty, prudence, thankfulness, reverencing aged men? things that make you an easy target for mockery. Today qualities of this kind are seen as weaknesses. Being kind is an antithesis for being cool.

Ptolemy also talks about the religious signification of Venus. It's somewhere around page 60 if you've got the Ashmand translation - the section on eclipses, I think.

One more time - the clowns that Lilly was talking about bear no relation to circus clowns - see Deb's post above.

Deb wrote:So no, he doesn?t mean the circus clown; but Olivia?s comment that she find?s circus clowns quite creepy, and so a little Saturnian, is still interesting. Clowns do seem to be quite frightening and evocative of fear for many people. I think the element that creates this is the way that they whiten their faces. I once did some informal research into the charts of people who were known for the ?whitening? their faces, as an exploration of their Saturn themes. Elizabeth I, for example did it to create a sense of the ?untouchable?, so that the common people would see her like a marble god. The biography of serial killer Dennis Nilsen also reveals how he used to whiten his face and spend hours fascinated by the morbid pallor reflected in the mirror. So this aspect of the circus clown is, I think, tied into the Saturn theme, even though they are supposed to be the entertaining, merry figures that you describe.

The fact that some person - no matter who he is - finds some thing frightening does not mean that this thing must be Saturnian.

For example, I might find a horse (signified by Jupiter) scary, because I don't like long heads - so, are horses now Saturnian? Are horses made to scare humans to death?

"Clowns" who act in horror films like It are not real clowns, but Saturnian horror creatures with clown-like clothes - their aim is to make people scared, not to amuse them.

Here's the definition of a modern "clown" in Wikipedia:
Clowns are comical performers, stereotypically characterized by their grotesque appearance: colored wigs, stylistic makeup, outlandish costumes, unusually large footwear, etc., who entertain spectators by acting in a hilarious fashion. Types of their acts vary greatly. Some children find clowns very scary.

If you find something scary, you can't find it funny at all, and vice versa.

By the way, do you find the clowns on the picture on the right scary? Those are about as scary as Krusty from the Simpsons, a children's hero.

GR wrote:Part of this rather simplistic attribution of 'fame' to either one planet or another is the assumption that all fame is the same, all of the same quality. This is just not true.

Well, I was not the one to state that the Sun and Jupiter would both represent fame...

As I said, the Sun mainly aims for rulership and dominion, whilst Jupiter longs for fame (popularity) and esteem in society.

GR wrote:Saturn clearly gives fame when it involves handling the matters of others, as attested in Valens, as well as Bonatti.

Saturn - in his essence - is absolutely contrary to any form of fame, honours or richness.
Hence Saturn's association with day-labourers, beggars and outsiders - this sort of people doesn't seem to be very inclined to fame or any kind of popularity.

GR wrote:No, I said they can be. Please read what I wrote again.

You still haven't told what you think eccentrics and clowns have in common.

Again: Why should socialized eccentrics or extravagant individuals be of Saturnian nature?

GR wrote:Actors are saturnine. In ancient days they were regarded as low class people. If you look at the gossip pages, you'll see how similarily they are regarded now. And yet you know who they are, is that not fame?

Times seem to have changed.
Actors - at least Hollywood actors - are anything but low class. Nearly everyone of them is rich and famous, and belongs to the "creme de la creme" of society.

GR wrote:Ever watch any British comedy? Or maybe some George Carlin?

Do you think that humour - something warm and moist - can in essence be Saturnian?

Humour in general is something warm and moist and hence Sanguine and Jupiterian. The term joviality expresses this most clearly - it's something benefic to mankind

Saturn himself is not inclined to making jokes or to being funny, he is rather austere and sad. Saturn's variation of humour is always severe, or deals with death and the dark sides of lifes - this doesn't make humour in itself something Saturnian.

So, dry humour and severe (black) humour can be seen as a melancholic/Saturnian variation of humour in general.

You still haven't told what you think eccentrics and clowns have in common.

Try this: They are both outside the norm and serve to parody the norm ? or rather, that which is comfortably believed to be the norm. They are like sinister fun house mirrors. I would tend to go with the Mercury trickster, but Mercury with some added Saturn and Luna.

Edward wrote: Could you show me a reference - if possible on Skyscript? I would be glad to see where Venus gets associated with religion and spirituality.

I know the Arabs stated that Venus signifies the Islam in particular - I don't know if this applies to Christianity and all the other Religions. In general, it is Jupiter that signifies Religion and Spirituality.

In Ibn Ezra in The Beginning of Wisdom, it's Saturn for Jews, Jupiter for Christians, and Venus for Islam. Picatrix follows this, too, as do many other authors.

Religion in the big sense is house 9.

But per Ptolemy, Valens, and most everyone I've read, 'religious practise in general' goes to Venus, regardless of which religion you follow. With the Greeks, some religious practise goes to the 11th house, as it's the third from the 9th (how well you've learnt how to put your religious training into practise). Religions out-of-favour, or heresies, go to house 3 (Lilly, and others).

Here's an article of an Indian astrologer on the "trans-Saturnian" planets.
http://shyamasundaradasa.com/jyotish/re ... an_eng.pdf
The 'Vedic' part isn't too dominating, so it is very readable for Western traditional astrologers, who don't use the modern planets either.
I do look at the (three) modern planets but only in transits. However I try to do as little as possible with them. I don't use them in the natal chart and in progressions and directions.

The article mentions something on the issue of the modern planets as being 'octaves' of the traditional planets.

The article wrote:This idea of "higher octave" is fallacious. All the planets, not just Venus, Mercury and Mars, have their own higher octaves and if the astrologer actually knows the subject he can determine this.

An interesting view. So these planets can manifestate on different levels, from the most concrete to the most abstract.

I'm not sure what to do when a new planet is used. On one side I don't think it should necessarily be catagorized using one of the traditional planets. On the other hand the qualities of the traditional planets on their turn were classified by Ptolemy using the four temperaments. This could also be applied to the new planets.

In practice the only 'new' planets I use (in transits) are Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. I have the impression that they 'work', but I don't have that the asteroids. Especially now Pluto is classified as an asteroid, I feel a bit annoyed that such a little 'icy rock' can work.

I've been trying to study my past events/important periods using only Jupiter and Saturn transits. Even though there are some 'gaps', I think these transits are very essential, perhaps even more important than the transits of the moderns, even while the mood changes that accompany these are quite strong.

Olivia wrote:In Ibn Ezra in The Beginning of Wisdom, it's Saturn for Jews, Jupiter for Christians, and Venus for Islam. Picatrix follows this, too, as do many other authors.

So Ibn Ezra - a Muslim - stated that Venus signifies Islam. Did the other authors really see this similarly? I don't think Muslims are known for beeing very peaceful and women-friendly.
I would be inclined to say that the Muslims are more probably signified by Mars, since throughout their history they proved as a rather aggressive people of invaders.

As for Jews, I don't know much about them. But they were often seen as malefics in the past so this might be the reason why they are said to be signified by Saturn.

Jupiter for the Occidental Christians seems to fit. The Christians were known for their wisdom and their prominence in the world at their time. Jupiter rules the good and divine things.

Ibn Ezra was a Jew. A rabbi. Who wrote massive commentaries on the Torah. And he said that Saturn is Judaism, Christianity is Jupiter, and Islam is Venus.

So did some other Jewish astrologers, like Sahl. And this Jewish astrologer agrees with them. I question giving a benefic to Christianity, but I do see the parallel between Zeus and Jesus. Still, it was mostly based on timing, not malefic/benefic.

The holy day theory only works with Judaism and Islam (Saturday and Friday, respectively), Christians have Sunday, but would have Thursday if it went by that - though it doesn't.

Most of the Islamic astrological writings we have available to us now came out of as close as we can come to a 'Golden Age'. If it hadn't been for Islam, a LOT of sciences and other knowledge would be lost to us completely. And for a time there, before history went and changed again, translating this stuff often depended on having people who were fluent in Persian, Arabic, Hebrew, and Latin.

Mostly it was in Spain that all this happened, then there was a conquest (can't remember who at the moment), the country went pretty much straight Christian, and Christians, Muslims, and Jews were no longer translating things together, and Muslims and Jews were no longer allowed to associate with Christians - then the expulsions happened. But for a time there, it was actually pretty civilised. May we have such an age again in our lifetimes.

Hello edward,

So Ibn Ezra - a Muslim - stated that Venus signifies Islam. Did the other authors really see this similarly? I don't think Muslims are known for beeing very peaceful and women-friendly.
I would be inclined to say that the Muslims are more probably signified by Mars, since throughout their history they proved as a rather aggressive people of invaders.

The issue of planetary signifcators for religions has been discussed before here on skyscript with some very erudite replies. I will try and find the link if I can for you.

As someone of a non Judeo-Christian-Islamic persuasion myself its something I do take with something of a pinch of salt. Still, in order to criticise the tradition its best to understand it properly.

While you are entitled to your views I do think you are getting into gross distortions about the history of Islam as a whole. However, rather than enter into debate with you I prefer to stick to the astrology and leave such controversial and potentially offensive discussions out.

Incidentally you are mistaken about Ib Ezra. He was not a Muslim. Ibn Ezra was actually a leading Jewish scholar in his time.

PS Just noted Olivia has already replied! Sorry for any duplication.

Eddy wrote:I'm not sure what to do when a new planet is used. On one side I don't think it should necessarily be catagorized using one of the traditional planets. On the other hand the qualities of the traditional planets on their turn were classified by Ptolemy using the four temperaments. This could also be applied to the new planets.

In practice the only 'new' planets I use (in transits) are Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. I have the impression that they 'work', but I don't have that the asteroids. Especially now Pluto is classified as an asteroid, I feel a bit annoyed that such a little 'icy rock' can work.

I've been trying to study my past events/important periods using only Jupiter and Saturn transits. Even though there are some 'gaps', I think these transits are very essential, perhaps even more important than the transits of the moderns, even while the mood changes that accompany these are quite strong.

The Reason why Modern Astrologers desperately want the outer planets to fit in is, that they don't know the self-contained and conclusive model of traditional astrology.

Rather than considering whether it is wise to insert the outer planets, they want to forcibly put them in by hook or by crook.

It is not only the outer planets, but also asteroids like Chiron or even hypothetical planets like Lillith.
For example, Chiron is said to signify "grievous experiences" and "inner healing" - things that are in fact ruled by the malefics Mars and Saturn.
The only positive in bad things might be the possibility to learn how to avoid them in future.

Modern astrologers would state that aircrafts are ruled by Uranus, because they are new and modern. But Carriages once were new and modern, too.
Aircrafts are naturally ruled by Mercury, because they are a means of transport which serve mankind - preferably by Mercury in airy signs, as they are known to travel in the air.
Mercury in earthy or fiery signs would show transporters which travel by land, in watery signs he would show ones that travel by water (on or under the water).

No need of outer planets, asteroids, hypothetical planets or the like - the more precious a thing is, the less factors it has to make use of.

Olivia wrote:Ibn Ezra was a Jew. A rabbi. Who wrote massive commentaries on the Torah. And he said that Saturn is Judaism, Christianity is Jupiter, and Islam is Venus.

Isn't Ibn Ezra a Muslim name ("Son of Ezra")?

No matter if by birth Jew or not, Ibn Ezra was heavily influenced by the Islam, as he was born in Moorish Spain.

Furthermore he could speak Arabic properly.

The Moors - Islamic by religion - had taken Spain and occupied it by force. So how can the Islam be associated with Venus, as Venus stands for peace and gentleness - just because Ibn Ezra said it, it must be so?