I?ve been asked to make this post on behalf of an astrologer who needs to remain anonymous concerning this matter. They have sent their own judgment but realise that being so personally involved in the question might make it easy to miss something obvious. Any insights appreciated.

Over to ?Anon? ?
Data: 10.08 am 12 Nov 2004 London - 20 Sag rising.

The question I asked was, 'How much longer will I be in my current job?'. The company has been looking increasingly fragile, financially. What was on my mind was that it might collapse, go bankrupt. So the question wasn't about whether I would be dismissed. I wanted an idea of if, and when, I would need to start looking for another job - could it leave it till after Christmas? It doesn't seem to me like a straightforward chart - it was a struggle to get a viable judgement from it - but maybe I'm missing something obvious.

As querent, I get Jupiter as Asc ruler and Moon as generic co-ruler. The job is shown by MC ruler Venus. Venus is separating from Jupiter, and Moon is separating from Venus. So it does look as if I'm moving away from the job.

The only aspect Jupiter forms is with Mercury, which goes retrograde before leaving its current sign, and retrogrades back to Jupiter. They conjunct at 15 degrees Libra, about 5 degrees from where Jupiter currently is. What is Mercury? I'm inclined to take it as ruler of the 12th from the 10th, i.e. the company's self-destruction. There was an episode just less than a month before I asked the question where the operation had to deal with a couple of bad debts, either one of which could have brought the company down. It makes sense, to me, to equate this with the Mercury-Jupiter aspect (now separating) which occurred a bit less than a degree ago.

So, I (Jupiter) meet up with the job's self-undoing (Mercury) in about five units of time. With Jupiter being cadent and cardinal, the time measure is the quickest applicable. This would suggest 5 weeks, and maybe it is, though because of the timing suggested by the last Mercury-Jupiter aspect, and also with an eye on what common sense suggests, I'm going for 5 months. The fact that Mercury takes a long time to perfect the aspect - moving away from it, then stationing and going retro - seems on a common-sense basis as if it should slow things down, though I can't recall a precedent for that in the texts.

Mercury stations and goes direct just after forming the sextile to Jupiter, perfecting the aspect again at 17 degrees, so maybe that suggests a final period of collapse between 5 - 7 months.

I didn't mention Pluto earlier, since I don't normally look at the modern planets in a major way in horaries, but Pluto does seem to demand attention in this chart - not only is he on the Ascendant to within a degree, but also Mercury goes over him & back before getting to Jupiter. I'm not sure that I'd want to deduce any more from this, than that there will be some powerful transformation afoot.

With Jupiter being cadent and cardinal, the time measure is the quickest applicable.

This is a good place to bring up this confusing issue of cadency relating to things happening quickly. We?ve had a few recent posts about this but it can be easily misunderstood. The consensus of traditional literature is that planets that are angular have the power to exercise their will. So generally:

Angular = quick
Succeedent = intermediate
Cadent = slow

This makes sense in a question where the querent is asking something like ?will I get the promotion and when??. If the indications promise success and the significators are angular we would expect this to happen quickly. The same indications with cadent significators would most definitely slow down the event and bring a question mark over whether what looks set to happen really does have the potential to manifest ? if it does it will be with the burden of time and trouble involved, with a lack of will to drive the matter forward.

The essential attribute of cadency is a lack of strength (an inclination to fall and ?give up? rather than to push forward). In this chart the matter being discussed relates to how quickly something might collapse. The aspectual contact is between a cadent main significator (which shows the querent is unable to take control over the event) and a significator which appears to symbolise ?downfall?. Cadency supports the state of downfall and so in an instance such as this the contact of two cadent planets is not going to delay the potential but instead make it more likely and therefore more impending.

Even so, at that level we are only operating from a very general sense of overview. Jupiter being cadent does not incline towards the event considered because the querent does not want to lose the job. Its location in a cardinal sign indicates (I would guess) that there is already an awareness for the need for change and a willingness to make whatever changes are necessary. Jupiter?s cadency only shows to me that Jupiter lacks the ability to manipulate this situation and so it is passive to the influences upon it. Its only future contact is from Mercury which gets to 27 Sag, then turns retrograde at the end of the month and then reapplies to the square of Jupiter which perfects on 13 December with both planets then at 15 degrees of their signs. Before deciding the influence of Mercury?s cadency upon the timing I would want to identify what exactly Mercury is, and whether it is inclining towards the fall or merely offering a weak defence against it. If we take ?anon?s? view that Mercury, as the turned 12th for the company, represents self-destruction then it is definitely inclining towards the fall, and since Mercury is a lithe little planet and this is a mutual application by retrograde significators, we can expect that when the effects do reveal themselves, they will do so even more suddenly and unexpectedly than normal.

However, that last comment might say more about the way that things happen rather than when they happen, (so we might expect that when the cracks start to open up in public, at that time everything takes a sudden and dramatic turn, surprising everyone with how quickly things collapse from that point on). This all adds to a sense of timing but we need to factor in the other elements of the chart.

I?m going to leave room for some other views here but a few other points that struck me as relevant and not mentioned in the original post are:

The Moon?s separation from the square of Neptune and its applying combustion with the Sun

Mars, the dispositor of the lights, demanding attention on the MC, conjunct the SN, applying to the volatile trine of Uranus and ruling the turned 2nd house of the company?s finances. When Mars gets involved in financial signification it points to the heated dispersion of substance. Mars also rules the company?s turned 7th of opponents and events that bring damage.

In matters concerning the potential change of jobs, the MC at the end of the sign brings change and the number of degrees left in the sign can be relevant to the timing.

Hopefully I?ll get chance to get back into this thread after the weekend

Deb

Thanks, Deborah, for posting my original post and commenting on it. There's been one development which might be worth noting for anyone who's following this thread.

12 days after the horary, I heard a couple of pieces of news within a couple of minutes. Firstly, a major creditor who we'd been relying on to let us defer payment on a debt, said that they wouldn't do that; and then a key member of personnel announced that he was resigning (for reasons which are likely to apply to several other people, who will also probably resign, which will cut off the company's current revenue stream).

15.06 24th Nov, London if anyone's interested. It felt like a major blow. Now the company's only hope is for new contracts to get signed very quickly.

The question I pondered was, whether this timing could be seen in the original chart. The only plausible thing I can see, is that it takes Venus (which as 10th ruler in the original horary = 'the company') 12 degrees 29 minutes to change signs - moving out of Libra, into Scorpio and (loosely) conjunct Mars to boot. This potentially would give a timing very close to the advent of the latest disasters. But does this mean I was looking at the chart all wrong to start with? I need to think about this. Any thoughts gratefully received.

I don?t think you read the chart wrong. From your first post, I would have said that the period around 13th December is the most critical period, not just because that?s the date Mercury retrogrades back to Jupiter (turned 12th house ruler to radical 12th house ruler involving your significator and Mercury surely suggests bad news whichever way you look at it); but also because that takes us to just over 4 weeks after the question, which ties in with the 4 and a half degrees remaining on the MC before it changes signs ? because this is a moveable sign weeks are more appropriate than months.

Working to that framework I also felt that some development would occur a couple of weeks after the question, connected to Mars which is angular and so prominent in its conjunction with the SN in the company?s 1st house. Mars is 2 degrees from Uranus which exposes divisions, and when Mars and Uranus are together in any aspect it?s a very volatile combination which surprises everyone with its unexpectedness. What?s interesting about the time that you heard the news is that by transit the Moon was translating directly between Uranus and Mars : (separating from the sextile of Uranus and applying to the opposition of Mars across the Asc-desc in the transit chart). Seeing Mars as the ruler of the company?s 2nd, and harbinger of financial trouble, we should have expected the Moon?s activating influence upon these two malefics to expose some of the troubles signified in the chart. I didn?t look at the relevance of Venus to Mars ? but if an astrologer had, and had then taken the trouble to look at the transits at the time symbolised by that connection, I think it would have been a natural consequence to have seen the Moon?s action on the key triggers and given a perfectly timed prediction rather than ?about two weeks?. That?s an interesting thought.

The only thing I disagreed with in your original judgement is the choice of months over weeks ? everything in this chart is pointing to events that happen quickly and unexpectedly and the Moon?s combustion with the Sun suggests that what is about to ?die off? will do so soon (that?s also about 2 and a half degrees of separation so might tie in with what is happening now but I think Mars is a more reliable trigger because it?s angular and it?s a planet that expresses itself very openly so it?s usually easy to match its triggers to external events. Mars also disposes the lights, so it?s effects are connected to the combustion of the Moon that?s taking place in the company?s turned 2nd).

I see what you?ve described as a confirmation of the chart?s significance, but I still think that the Mercury-Jupiter square has yet to express itself and there?s more to come leading up to and around mid-December.

Mid-December makes very good sense - I heard at the end of the week that there's a big meeting with the Inland Revenue on 16th December. This is to do with my boss's personal finances - he's been (let's say) cavalier in his dealings, and this has resulted in huge fines being raised against the company. The meeting on 16th is an appeal against them, and if it goes badly then the company is stuffed.

One or two other thoughts - taking the boss of the company to = 10th from 10th, i.e. radical 7th, then the boss's finances (radical 8th) have Saturn on the cusp and are ruled by Moon which of course is combust in the boss's turned 5th. The 5th seems strangely appropriate, in that he has a strange need for excitement (Mars, Uranus & Pluto in his natal 1st - maybe not so strange!) which leads him to not fill in forms, reply to official demands etc. I think it could really be characterised as a form of gambling for him.

Should we see Mercury as the company's self-undoing (12th from the 10th), or the boss (10th from the 10th)? If mid-December is indeed the critical date, the two will turn out to be synonymous.

So thanks Deb, this has been really enlightening. I'll keep you posted on events!

Mars, the dispositor of the lights, demanding attention on the MC, conjunct the SN, applying to the volatile trine of Uranus and ruling the turned 2nd house of the company?s finances. When Mars gets involved in financial signification it points to the heated dispersion of substance. Mars also rules the company?s turned 7th of opponents and events that bring damage.

Hi Deb,
I agree that Mars has an important role to play in this horary, but the one thing that puzzles me is that, as ruler of the company's 2nd of resources, at first glance it would imply they are in fairly decent shape, given that Mars is dignified in Scorpio. Somehow I just can't seem to square that one away [ no pun intended!]. Any thoughts?

The other thing I noticed which I don't think has been mentioned is that Jupiter rules the turned 4th house - the end of the matter for the company - so the eventual contact from Mercury to Jupiter would seem to finalise things for the company from more than one perspective.

Cheers...
--
Pete

Pete's question about the company's second house is a good one. The financial situation right now is certainly not the robust one which Mars in Scorpio seems to suggest.

I wonder if a comment Deb made re. this chart hasn't already covered a large part of the Mars issue? I'm thinking of this:

Mars, the dispositor of the lights, demanding attention on the MC, conjunct the SN, applying to the volatile trine of Uranus and ruling the turned 2nd house of the company?s finances. When Mars gets involved in financial signification it points to the heated dispersion of substance. Mars also rules the company?s turned 7th of opponents and events that bring damage.

The conjunction to the South Node I'd think of as suggesting over-confidence. And it also seems like it should be relevant that Mars is in its own Dignity, Triplicity, Term and Face - there is no positive relationship with any other planet through dignity. Maybe the message here is the one about all one's eggs, the basket, and the advisability of not locating the former in the latter. So maybe spread any investments around instead of putting them all on one stock... if that's relevant?

Hi Garry,

If the company had any investments in the first place, it wouldn't be in the fix it is. It's just a case of trying to spread the debts around! But 'over-confidence' is certainly relevant to its finances - the directors have always spent every last bit of money they could get their hands on, without consolidating, assuming that great things were just round the corner. If they are (and the signs hardly look good!) they'd better arrive soon...

See you,
Anon

I suppose the question here is whether by being strongly dignified Mars becomes a more favourable planet rather than a more damaging planet? I think it only shows an extreme effect and whether it?s good or bad depends upon other connections and the context of the chart. I?d like this Mars to represent me if I was going into battle; I wouldn?t want it to represent my boss if I had to tell him I just crashed my car into the back of his Mercedes (yes, I did that once). In this instance it gives more emphasis to a maliciously aspected and powerfully angular Mars which is bound to represent the need to swing into battle mode. The finances can?t look healthy with the Sun in the 2nd, the Moon combust there and Mars as the ruler conjunct the S.N.

One aphorism from Lilly that I?ve always found very reliable is where he tells us that the Sun or Mars are never well placed in the second house because they show dispersion of the substance (p.52). I didn?t accept that at first with the Sun, but I have found it usually signifies overconfidence or an excess of self-indulgence; with Mars I think it?s rash dealings, conflicts with financial partners and unhealthy risk-taking. Although Mars isn?t in the 2nd house in this chart, by becoming the significator of the financial issues it reads the same way to me ? whatever it is Mars is always essentially martial in its signification. Big Mars: big trouble

Hi Deb,
well once again you've spotted something in C.A. that I missed, and now that you've pointed it out I can understand how this dignified yet malefic ruler of the turned 2nd "demanding attention" can indicate financial turmoil. And thanks to Garry too, for pointing out what you'd said earlier.
A malefic is a malefic, and when holding such multiple dignities as Mars does here, it seems like it's beholden to no-one! It just does whatever the heck it likes and if you don't like it well, tough!
Thanks for clearing that up
--
Pete

I want to post a brief update on this story. Though I'd be happier if I could tie up all the loose threads in the chart, I can't! So this is really just for anyone out there who's followed the story to date and wants to know what happened next. For anyone new to the thread who wants to follow a nice neat horary, my advice would be, don't bother with this one - it's way too messy and complicated. Anyway here's what happened:

On 5th January the company negotiated a huge loan (at 50% interest - a sign of the desperate straits they are in) which will prop it up for another 6 months. On 6th Jan - before I'd heard about the loan, though it wouldn't really have changed anything - I handed in my notice. I'd got into conversation on 12th Dec with a friend whose company needed someone to do the kind of thing that I do. So I'm moving to them, though it looks like I'll continue to do a bit for the old company in my spare time.

Looking at the chart now, I can see fragments which are accurate: the ruler of the 11th, house of friends, is strong & is in my 10th. The 11th is emphasised by the presence in it of Sun & Moon. There is mutual reception between Jupiter (Asc ruler) and Saturn - which in turned-chart terms sits on the 10th from the 11th, the company of my friend. But I don't see how the movement in the chart describes what happened. If I had to try and make it fit I'd say, take Mercury to = my business partner, and treat take the way Mercury and Jupiter perfect a sextile to = the timing of my new job. That pans out time-wise, but it wasn't really a business-partner type deal, it was me joining an existing set-up.

Thanks once again to those of you who made helpful comments on this chart. It definitely played a role in influencing how I dealt with the situation, and maybe in the end that's the main thing.