Hello,

I am new in Horary and am reading the online introduction to Horary by Deborah Houlding. I have a question:

Why the fifth house rules mediators like diplomats, ambassadors...


Another question:
If someone asks a questions through email which time and place should be considred for the horary chart? The time and place that the querent posed the question? or The time and place that the astrologer received it?

Thank you.

Hi,

Ambassadors and diplomats are signified by the 5th house of fun:

1. because they are mediators, fit to be ruled by Venus which rules Libra, and the 5th house is Venus' house of joy.

2. because they lead a 5th house life-style on their day job, full pf parties, official dinners, receptions, ceremonies etc., all financed by the state.

3. because they live in the embassy, which is a foreign territory inside a foreign country, and the 5th is 9th from the 9th.

4. because they are actually spies, secretly acting behind the back of the foreign country's leaders - 5th is 12th from the 6th, 6th is 10th from the 9th.

5. All or none of the above. Make you choise.

The Horary chart is cast for the time and place where the astrologer fully understands the question. Not all astrologers agree on that.

HTH

Hi AquaStella,

Thanks for your thorough reply. Your last comment about casting the time of the question was new to me (well I'm new in Horary) but is something to think about.

Hi nad,

I always use the time and place where I read or hear the question to cast charts for my clients. This works even if the person sends you a question by email - you take the time and place where you read the email. It's a little strange to think about perhaps, but it works!

It's an important point AquaStella makes about when the astrologer understands the question. This is very important - you can't answer a question unless you understand what it is asking! So for example, if a person sent me an email with a horary question, but I couldn't figure out what they meant by it, I would send another email back asking for clarification. They send the clarification, and only then would I draw up the chart, if I understood the question that time

AquaStella, An interesting point about the 5th being the 9th from the 9th. Never heard that before! I like it!

Keren

nad wrote:Hello,
If someone asks a questions through email which time and place should be considred for the horary chart? The time and place that the querent posed the question? or The time and place that the astrologer received it?

Thank you.

Nad

A similar question asked by me in another forum and the answer rceived is found in the following link

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/sh ... hp?t=11333

I thought you will be interested

Kannan

Nad

Some more inputs on the same subject taken from another thread for your information given below

Kannan

Copied from anpther thread.

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:39 am :
MarkC

Thank you very much for your inputs and advice. Just for a clarification, suppose my grandson or sombody sends a question over e-mail, which time ,date and place I should erect the chart for. Is it for sender's or receiver's.

Regards

Kannan

Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:59 am


Hello Kannan,

That is a good question as nowadays much astrological work is purely over email.

The approach most horary astrologers use is to time the chart from when they receive and understand the question. So its the astrologer's local time and place that is used to erect the chart.

However, on forums like skyscript where lots of astrologers are reading the same chart we will use the chart time/place posted by the querent. Otherwise it would be total chaos!

best wishes,

Mark

Thank you all and sorry for delay I have limited access to the web.

Setting the place to where the astrologer resides seems to be alright without debate.

Also if you don't understand the question and ask the querent for clarification well the original time of the query should be overriden.

But if you checked your mail a week after the question was asked, you still set the time of the horary chart to when you read the question. Right? It kina make sense to me after some reflection but still makes me a bit uncomfortable.

I was wondering about this as well, and I think the answer is not as easy as we would like it to be.

For a client that does not know the rules of horary, the time they verbalize the question is allright, I'd say. They may have the question for a long time in their heads, and they must surely do not remember the first moment that it popped up their minds. But just like we elect a significant moment to erect a natal chart (the first breath) we elect a sigificant moment to answer a doubt (the moment the question comes to life through words, through the impulse of asking). If by mail, and there is not time, the moment you receive is the moment the contact is made, so you erect it for the time and place you are, since that's where the dialogue takes place.

Now, when the querent is familiar with the rules of astrology, it means he knows about the nature of time, or suposedly knows. In this case, it is advisable to use the time and place the question was done. If the chart gets to confusing, then I'd advise him to rethink the question and make it again, since the moment of the consultation is part of the flow of events as well, and is a good moment to put things in a ordely manner.

I sometimes get muddy charts that force I myself to cast another chart in order to understand what really is going on. So it is not always clear the right moment, but like Deb says, all charts are radical.

To avoid all these confusions, we have one KP System in Vedic astrlogy in India where the client is requested to quote one number within 1 to 249 and a chart is erected by the astrologer against the no. selected in the same way you erect on the question time. This 249 is not a magic number but refers to the subdivisions of 27 stars surrounding the earth. Each stellar subdivision (nuumber) gives you a horoscope obtainable from referring to a Table of Horary numbers,prepared for differnt Lat. and Long. spread over different places. Once the number is available you can erect a chart from any place and at any time . The main advantage in using Horary Numbers is this: Assume 2 politicians asking the same question at the same time whether they will win in the election.One is going to win and another lose. Chart is the same. But if they are asked for a number , the chart will be totally different ( Both quoting the same no. is a remote possibility)

For want of space and time full details could not given here

Regards

Kannan

PFN wrote:Now, when the querent is familiar with the rules of astrology, it means he knows about the nature of time, or suposedly knows. In this case, it is advisable to use the time and place the question was done. If the chart gets to confusing, then I'd advise him to rethink the question and make it again, since the moment of the consultation is part of the flow of events as well, and is a good moment to put things in a ordely manner.

I sometimes get muddy charts that force I myself to cast another chart in order to understand what really is going on. So it is not always clear the right moment, but like Deb says, all charts are radical.

If you want to get an answer of the stars, you have to ask the stars. But you can ask the stars only, if you speak and understand the language of the stars. If you don't you need the help of an astrologer.

The stars can't help it, that your client "knows about the nature of time" because - remaining in the association with language - they don't 'understand' the question. Not before someone is asked who understands the language of the stars and the question too - the astrologer.

In another picture you could see that a birth has not taken place before the child has not taken his own breath for living. Here you can derive the astrologer to be the air giving life to the question. Before the astrologer has not understood what is asked, there is no living/existing question relevant to the stars.

To avoid to get "sometimes muddy charts" (I suppose you speak of your own questions?) many astrologers ask at once a colleague; that means, to avoid muddy charts they behave ?n their own affair like a client.

To get for yourself 'the right moment' for your own question can be very difficult, I think (see your muddy charts!).

johannes wrote:To avoid to get "sometimes muddy charts" (I suppose you speak of your own questions?) many astrologers ask at once a colleague; that means, to avoid muddy charts they behave ?n their own affair like a client.

To get for yourself 'the right moment' for your own question can be very difficult, I think (see your muddy charts!).

No, I was not talking about myself. I was talking mainly of charts where persons that do not believe entirely in astrology or doubt it come seeking a solution to their problems and asks a question not entirely sincere or the like, wanting an answer and testing it at the same time. That's not to say when they themselves do not understand clearly what troubles them, so there's no aligment between what they say and what the chart says, giving myself a headache. Generally this people have the knowledge of the "moment of the question" in their minds, so they come with a time set for it (they read somewhere about horary rules, and are somewhat familiar with it, having already a time set for their question!). In this case, I cast the chart myself to see what's going on, since as mediator I'm interested that an answer comes (In the end I disregard the moment the person gives and just cast a horary as the mediator, but then again, some times the chart time originally presented clearly reflects the situation and gives a straight answer). Generally, if the doubt is really strong, the chart comes crystal clear anyway, but when the question does not reflect the real doubt, the astrologer may be in for trouble. There are considerations to see what is wrong with the chart (when it does not reflect the situation) but they are not always easy to pinpoint (essential dignity seems to be one of them).

I'd say that before translating the language of the stars, you have to translate what your client actually wants. In a translation process you have a source language and the target language. The interaction goes like a mediation, where you are the translator. Client asks something, you draw a chart (language of the stars) and the answer is not reflecting the words of the client. Since the stars are more trustworth than client, we suppose there is something wrong with client, not stars. It's advisable to ponder on that, cause not always the stars will give a straight answer, so the client is not always to blame, but your lack of capability. And not always technique will help you out of it also (I consider astrology to be, ultimately, a imperfect tool in itself, but there is room for improvement, obviously, be it technique or yours).

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I do not subscribe to the opinion that you have to choose between time of the consultation or the original time of the question. Rather, both of them works. And they could be analysed together also, if necessary. That makes things unecessarily difficult, but is the only way to have an answer sometimes. More or less like analysing a birth chart and a SR, you cut two frames of time in order to have a better, refined answer for a specific moment in time. Most of the time, though, the time of the consultation will be enough. One good example is here at the forum, where we should be casting horaries to the place and time we are in, but rather we use those we are given. Still, nothing prohibits us to cast the chart for the time we actually understand the question, since each of us is a different astrologer trying to interpret a situation. If the rule of time of consultation works, and our technique is good, the heavens will keep giving the same answer to this question. Although it would be maddening to see a different chart popping up everytime a new astrologer undergone the task. So, for uniformity sake, we stick to the time given.

About my own charts, they generally come clear enough for me, although sometimes I doubt the result untill it happens (it's difficult to distance yourself when the emotional tie is strong, but still, the chart does reflect the truth, it's you who can or can not see it, emotion blind or not).

Just wanted to say that I'm quite enjoying this discussion!



If I recall it well, in her interview that is available from this site, Deb mentions an example of a horary chart cast for the time when her client asked for a natal chart delineation to get the whole picture.

"Double charts" in such cases as well as in the cases PFN is suggesting, do sound like a very reasonable choice.

Thnaks for sharing your thoughts on this PFN! I like the (well grounded) flexibility of your approach!