Kirk wrote:Thread-hopping is getting me confused.

Your are right, Kirk! So I copy my answer to Deb and Olivia into your new thread.

Johannes

This is all a bit vague isn?t it? I am well aware of the sun light and twilight factor and I?m as real an astrologer as John We are both entitled to opinion, as was Ramesey, but if he did say whatever he might have said, I would still argue with him.

My point is this: ancient astrologers didn?t just speculate about the moment of sunrise and sunset, they worshipped it, and they observed it religiously (or attempted to) in order to define it to a moment. The whole philosophy of sect is intimately bound to the concept of the seasonal hours, and assumes the belief that one planet?s hour represents a very different quality of time than the next planetary hour; and that the daytime hours are very different from the night time hours. We move from a day time hour to a night time hour in an instant and in that instant the chart changes from being a diurnal chart to nocturnal one. It is at this moment that sect alignments change, and I don?t believe it is philosophically justified or practically convenient to bring in a fudge factor to recognise twilight, be it nautical, civil or astronomical.

As the planetary recording of time changes from diurnal to nocturnal, that is when the definition of the chart changes ? that is all I am saying; not that twilight doesn?t have a certain quality of its own. It might be argued that the planetary hours don?t mean much in modern astrology, but they certainly did in ancient astrology, which is where the concept of sect is most deeply embedded. But yes, twilight has a different quality; that is another issue. On the other hand I have sat and watched the sunset, doing nothing else but sitting and observing the sunset, and there is ? very definitely ? a single moment when the energy changes. The only time I have been able to see the same effect with sunrise was when I was in an airplane and I was watching the sun slowly rise over the a widespread horizon. The moment it actually rose was startling, because the whole horizon glittered, in the same way that a total eclipse glitters for a moment in its diamond effect. That is when I understood why it was such a sacred and religious moment, and that we can?t expect to spread its magic out to some extended period of time when the light is increasing or fading.

The orthodox Jews have defined night as starting when 3 stars are visible. Given how ancient this tradition is and the continuity of quite a few mesopotamian traditions in Judaism, I wonder if that might have been the original Babylonian standard.

Any thoughts here?

Not really, Cornelia. If it's erev shabbat, night (the next day, since the Jewish day begins at dusk) begins 18 minutes before sunset, because you're eager to usher in shabbat.

On other days, night (a/k/a the new day) begins at sunset.

Full night on shabbat night is after three stars come out because you try to hold onto shabbat as long as possible. So it only applies one night per week, at least as far as I'm aware. Even still, you can go to web sites like chabad (which we can safely classify as frum) and see what time in almost any location shabbat officially starts and ends for any given week.

Olivia,

Chabad is pretty much a world to itself even within orthodox Judaism, so I'd be a bit suspicious of their theories.

My grandfather was an orthodox rabbi considered a "sage" by his followers in his old age and his second wife was a follower of the Satmer rabbi a highly respected Chassidic leader.

I remember my grandfather taking me out and showing me the three stars, and explaining their importance for distinguishing day from night. He would explain things with Talmudic glosses, but in this case the stars as a pointer seemed very clear cut. None of the ideas you cited which I have never before heard though my family was full of highly religious orthodox Jews and distinguishing when evening starts was important for other functions, not just the shabbos.

It's hard to check out exactly when those stars would have been visible now with our polluted light conditions. In the clear, dark skies above Babylon stars might have been visible earlier.

PallasAthene wrote:

matt23z wrote: I don't know about that but according to traditional astrology I wouldn't go very far when you do get up as Saturn in the 9th does not bode well for long journeys and square to ruler of the 6th means you may get ill when abroad.

Matthew

Hi Matthew, thanks for taking the time to comment.
You know, you're right.. I had 2 week job in S Carolina last year...the whole crew went to a sea food restaurant and I was only one violently sick that night : ) Work, travel and health all connected.

I also get a lot of work by word-of-mouth ie through friends and aquaintences. Makes sense, 6th ruler in 11th? Or is work 10th?

Saturn is about delays, restrictions by nature, so I'm having trouble thinking about it Rx. Lessons learned.. extra slowly? Or internalised? And in the 9th of higher learning, spiritual development.. well that's an internal place anyway.

Lost.. : (

I would like to repeat an advise that was given elsewhere on this forum (sorry, don't remember by who) not to take a single chart element and make conclusions / recommendations from it.
I have Saturn Rx in the 9th and I lived abroad for more than half of my life and not that bad at that. This is not to say that anyone with Saturn in the 9th will have the same experiences, but to say that this factor is not sufficient to get you in trouble during long journeys.

The question was about a specific planet in a house and not a complete chart delineation so my answer was relevant. Perhaps you are taking it a bit too seriously? Precisely what one would expect from someone with an afflicted Saturn in the 9th house of spiritual matters.

What's the opposite of axiom?

I have an afflicted Mars in my 9th so make of that what you will.

Matthew

Matthew, umm....

Precisely what one would expect from someone with an afflicted Saturn in the 9th house of spiritual matters.

First, no foreign travel, then a bit more and I will be diagnosed with religious bigotry or some other sin. May I go cry in the corner? To be honest, I am not sure that retrograde means afflicted. I prefer to call mine "retarded", especially Mercury. Cuts to the core better than "afflicted" I think

I hope you noticed my previous reply was not directed to you and in no way was it meant to criticize you or anybody else. I am sorry, I don't care where you mars is, I am not the one making one planet delineations here. Still, if I were to listen to all the nonsense about the delays, problems, etc. with my Saturn, I think I would have lost a lot. it might have been different for somebody else. Still, food poisoning especially during travels to exotic countries (though S.Carolina is not one of them) is not limited to those with Saturn in the 9th square lord of the 6th. Please excuse me, if this too sounds too serious

Actually, the term is 'imbecilic' for a retrograde planet. And a good aspect to a direct benefic can nullify the rx planet's imbecility. That's called rendering.

So you're not far off at all, Geo

Olivia,

Does that mean that my retrograde Mercury conjuncting my Moon is nullified because of the conjunction?

Not technically - Jupiter or Venus would do it if they weren't debilitated in some way, but it's unlikely the moon would. Though what's your experience been?

Well I think it's mostly influenced by the square to Mars in the 10th. People tend to think of me as intelligent and low key unless I get angry in which case I try to work it out in my mind (stew) unless it's someone being treated unfairly in which case I immediately come out with some sharp observation.