Hi Kirk,

Kirk wrote: If they had a goose that laid nice shiny golden ones would they walk away from it?

Yes, I do believe so, because,

matt23z wrote: If I understand Kirk he assumes that people will act rationally in their own interests but in my view that is incorrect. Most people are sheep who will follow the flock.

this is true.

Kirk, you need to get away from the idea that astrology is a "science" in a manner like that of modern science. It's not, and never has been, like a blood test that is going to tell you, yea or nay, that you have some horrible disease or something. All these assumptions you have, about astrology, "human nature", etc., are clouding your ability to perceive clearly. You want astrology to be like this, you want "human nature" to be like that, you want this sunrise to matter and not that one; this isn't an good skeptical approach to the matter. Going like this, you're going to throw your hands up and say "This is nonsense" and then, you're going to drop it. That's more like "human nature".

Kirk wrote: Trevor, you've expressed what has been on my mind a lot lately ? but I would say it applies to 'traditional' astrology as a whole, not just some techniques. How is an allegedly valuable and accurate system 'forgotten' if it IS so valuable and accurate? Kings and princes, wealthy landowners, merchants and bankers ? the powerful people: There's no way they would have allowed it to slip away if it was so effective! Good results would have led to greater demand as the world's population increased and became more urbanized, each person wanting his or her piece of the pie. Greater supply (more astrologers) would have followed. We can blame the Age of Reason and the development of modern science, but wealth and power as incentives are too strong to allow something so useful to be dropped along the way ? if it indeed is so useful.

But it all sort of faded away. And yet, we don't seem to question it as we go about our daily arguments about the best or most accurate old methods.

As I understand it a few astrologers came to nasty ends when their predictions back-fired, which must have dissuaded a few from getting to involved.

Fortunately today some folks are at liberty to review various ideas and try and cobble some 'systems' together and perhaps some harder evidence for their previous, or current, effectiveness will be more apparent in due course.

Personally i'm not holding my breath although I'm also intrigued, but who knows maybe some of those old fellows were more on the money than most folks think today. It's a long shot I'd say in reference to what we understand about human behaviour today. Although we can be foolish, and are very conformist, and it?s quite plausible some ideas were rashly discarded.

Easily tested, we can erect 10 charts and get people to say who is who from the biography. This should give some assistance as to who, or what, is on the right track.

From Gabe:

Kirk wrote:

If they had a goose that laid nice shiny golden ones would they walk away from it?

Yes, I do believe so, because,
matt23z wrote:

If I understand Kirk he assumes that people will act rationally in their own interests but in my view that is incorrect. Most people are sheep who will follow the flock.

this is true.

Before following the flock most people follow their own desires, what they're burning and yearning for. They aren't going to walk away from the ability to attain money and power through astrology simply because that's what the crowd is doing this season!!! There is nothing rational about it. It's simply lust, and that's human nature at its most basic and unrefined. If astrology truly was accurate enough to meet those desires it would have remained a prominent and often used craft or art.

Kirk, you need to get away from the idea that astrology is a "science" in a manner like that of modern science. . . . You want astrology to be like this, you want "human nature" to be like that, you want this sunrise to matter and not that one; . . .

I'm in the opposing camp: I think it's more of art. It was a part of philosophy and is part of the origin of modern science, which also branched from philosophy, but they are now worlds apart.

Actually, what I've been saying here and elsewhere is that the wishful thinking of those who are studying traditional astrology has them following some sort of ideal and dream of an astrology that's much more powerful and useful than it really is. They read the books and argue over the techniques that are (for some strange reason) considered to be the most accurate and legitimate ? the real astrology. I think I'm being the realistic one. And do keep in mind that Deb wanted that sunrise to matter, and not this one.



From Trevor:

As I understand it a few astrologers came to nasty ends when their predictions back-fired, which must have dissuaded a few from getting to involved.

Possibly a useful procedure? ...

Kirk wrote:Before following the flock most people follow their own desires, what they're burning and yearning for. They aren't going to walk away from the ability to attain money and power through astrology simply because that's what the crowd is doing this season!!! There is nothing rational about it. It's simply lust, and that's human nature at its most basic and unrefined. If astrology truly was accurate enough to meet those desires it would have remained a prominent and often used craft or art.

In my first post you said it was not about regress, but that is just twisting words. Now you say this... sorry for being blunt, but do you realize how utterly absurd is this afirmation in light of what astrology proposal means?

"Noone will get rich with astrology" is what astrology screams! You can try all you want, if you were not born to get loads of money easily, you will not. More often than not, you can predict your future all day and only come to very ground based conclusions like:

I'll not marry before 40's. I will not have much money. I'll never attain most of this absurd dreams that keeps haunting me. I'll have 3 children, and one of them will give me lots of problems, the only boy among girls. My studies will grant myself a degree of reliability in life, but I'll have to work a lot for them to matter. I'll have diabetis when I'm around 50.

What astrology does for 99,9% of people is to confirm that they are simple, basic, non special and will not have a destiny worth mentioning in the side notes of a book for our social parameters. So, why would something like that activate human's ambitions? Rather the opposite, it would humble us. The astrology that interest most people is one that does not work because it's heavily based on empty promisses, removed from the reality. Sometimes you may get happy charts, but happy chart people are the ones that care less about astrology. Why would they, their lifes lack problems from any standpoint!

So, what is the usefullness of knowing the day you will die? Well, you can say "I knew" instead of "oh, gosh!". And that's that. Now take this approach for everything else, since you will not get rich because you can predict the future, rather, you will understand the process of how life unfolds from a spiritual discipline called astrology. And then, when there is an accident to happen, you can slightly improve your chance's by taking a first aid kit with you all the time. You will still hurt a lot, but then, that will improve your chances by 0,1%, maybe? Sometimes, quite often less than more it gives a positive result, and it may be just that small difference that means survival x death. If you attain that through astrology, congratulations! It's fit to adapt, not to change, and even as an adaptation tool, it's impact is quite small.

Astrology is just another tool for prediction among all the others we have, albeit with a longer range, but suffering from less precision, and by having this tool at hand, you do not change suddenly and realize what was impossible from the start. Knowing this, the only moment people will need it is when they despair, not when they are going their way all right. If their way will not change because of it, why bother? But when despair strikes, to know the future can give a degree or two of peace, since this despairing may be about to end, and that is a hell of a comfort, at least for me. If it's not the case, oh well, grit the teeth and put Mars to work.

Kirk wrote: It's simply lust, and that's human nature at its most basic and unrefined.

Fear is more powerful then lust, though they are running off the same biological machinery.

Kirk wrote: If astrology truly was accurate enough to meet those desires it would have remained a prominent and often used craft or art.

PFN seems to have already noticed your assumption of some unfettered free will.

Kirk wrote: I'm in the opposing camp: I think it's more of art.

I really like Robert Schmidt's idea, regarding natal astrology, that it is a rational construct developed in order to make human life intelligible, if I'm remembering correctly.

Kirk wrote: Actually, what I've been saying here and elsewhere is that the wishful thinking of those who are studying traditional astrology has them following some sort of ideal and dream of an astrology that's much more powerful and useful than it really is.

Honestly this is where you're talking out of your hat, Kirk. Maybe you haven't been able to see any good out of it, but don't tar everybody else with the same brush. I do sympathize with the aversion to Tradition(TM) people, because I am of the opinion that there was a lot of degradation as opposed to inovation the further along we get from the origin(s) of Western astrology.

Kirk wrote: From Trevor:

As I understand it a few astrologers came to nasty ends when their predictions back-fired, which must have dissuaded a few from getting to involved.

Possibly a useful procedure? ...

Wouldn't some psychoanalysis be worse?

kirk wrote:And do keep in mind that Deb wanted that sunrise to matter, and not this one.

Excuse me? Why bring me into this thread? Sect is a lesser matter in the astrology that I personally use, so I don?t feel as passionate about it as you think. But I do understand the traditional theory, (so I recognise when ?new theories? are being ?made up? and delivered with mock authority), and I do think it is irrational to believe that your day starts later than your neighbour?s if they have a higher fence than you, and I did say that I couldn?t relate to your problem - but that is partly because I don?t want to repeat myself when I?ve given my view, take it or leave it.

I don?t relate at all to your comments in this thread, but then I don?t recognise any of the traditional astrologers whose works and life-achievements I respect to have been money-grabbing, power-driven, or golden-egg-chasing. Exactly the opposite ? those that gained prominence did so because of their wisdom, insight, and intellectual genius. The wonder, really, is why does astrology always survive ? no matter what persecution, political repression or change of worldview that we experience? The theory of it is full of apparent insanity and astrologers are intelligent, well educated people; but yet it survives, besides requiring the brain to develop new methods of perception. This is an occult study that requires deep reflection, sincere study, years of personal maturity ? it might have a popular appeal but few stay the course long enough to be able to fully understand the works such as Kepler?s or John Dee?s.
It is, (I think), in many ways, a dangerous study, and it can make slightly crazy people tip off the edge (because of the problem of trying to understand life, the universe and everything!); but there must be some kind of 'effort of will' going on to ensure that the right works get to the right student, because gravity alone would have buried astrology centuries ago.
Instead there have been regular waves of preservation and rediscovery. We might think that our generation is the one that is ?rediscovering? things, but the German astrologers of the Wittenberg region ? Montulmo, Regiomontanus, Schoener, Rheticus, and so on, prided themselves for being the generation that recaptured the lost works of the past. The monks who laboured to copy out the manuscripts did the same. The Arabs copied out the classical texts to make sure the contents were preserved. People assume that lost works of the past were wilfully destroyed but the reality is that works ceased to exist when new generations didn?t bother to reproduce and replace them. We have a tradition of astrology (no TM!) because it has withstood the pressure of time, fashion, and changing expectation, evolving/adapting in places, but always remaining capable of engaging intellectual and emotional interest. And - this point will not impress anyone, I know - my experience is that it works. Reliably so. I don't personally need it to, but I have found that it does.

Deb wrote:It is, (I think), in many ways, a dangerous study, and it can make slightly crazy people tip off the edge (because of the problem of trying to understand life, the universe and everything!)....

Nothing could be more true. I sometimes have to put astrology aside for a while for not getting my mind trapped in a labyrinth of thoughts .

On the subject of our base motivations what about vanity. We think clever words and arguments can help us understand the divine realms when the occasional bit of silence and humility would not go amiss.

In reply to Deb:

kirk wrote:
And do keep in mind that Deb wanted that sunrise to matter, and not this one.


Excuse me? Why bring me into this thread? Sect is a lesser matter in the astrology that I personally use, so I don?t feel as passionate about it as you think.

I followed my original statement with ? ". As I had been criticized for choosing the moment of sunrise, I was merely pointing out the irony that you also had a choice of sunrise moment. I was responding to Gabe's implication that I was wrong in making a choice, but you apparently weren't. That's all.

The wonder, really, is why does astrology always survive ? no matter what persecution, political repression or change of worldview that we experience? The theory of it is full of apparent insanity and astrologers are intelligent, well educated people; but yet it survives, besides requiring the brain to develop new methods of perception.

Is it really so surprising that it does survive? After all, philosophy survives, religion survives, the search for an understanding of life survives. That's why astrology survives: It helps people navigate through life. It's the process of studying astrology that provides the healthiest benefits, not the astrological techniques themselves.

And there is the scandal and failure of current pursuits of traditional astrology: The leaders, the authors and teachers, provide plenty of technical flash, but very little in the way of philosophical preparation and guidance. They don't guide the student through the process of transformation that can be initiated by astrological studies. There need to be fewer discussions about the most accurate predictive techniques, and more discussions about the act, ethics and implications of predicting astrologically. This shouldn't be simply a side dish ? it needs to be the main course. But the teachers and authors are instead working hand-in-glove with the students' desires to predict and to receive the benefits and possible acclaim those predictions can bring. Would the students lose interest with more philosophical discussion? Most of them sure would, and that means fewer customers for the teachers. Now we mostly have astrological consumers, with astrological vendors providing the goods. Students functioning on a certain level will be met by teachers functioning on a certain level.

This is an occult study that requires deep reflection, sincere study, years of personal maturity . . .

It's fun to imagine Ptolemy shrieking in horror at the idea of astrology as an occult study. No hidden mystical or spiritual proceedings for him. He was a rational science kind of guy ? an outward focus upon the world and its phenomena.

I read your statement as an implied agreement that the natural 'unrefined' human state is one of unenlightened personal desire and interest. Deep reflection, sincere study and years of personal maturity are good antidotes to the driving desires and self-interest. Saturn cools Mars.

But to return to the original point: Since desires such as the hunger for money and power will always be around and active, that would mean that astrology as 'desire fulfiller' through prediction and analysis of enemies and friends should also have always remained in wide active use. The fact that it fell mostly into disuse indicates that people discovered that the techniques really aren't all that effective.

But it doesn't matter. We've seen how the true purpose of astrology, that which keeps it alive (if sometimes barely), is the process and act of studying astrology. The true value of astrology may lie in the useful shock of self-discovery when we realize we've spent yet another evening trying to predict life's turns.

I wonder who you have been studying with (or is this experience of what teachers do based on an expectation of being taught by the internet?)

They don't guide the student through the process of transformation that can be initiated by astrological studies. There need to be fewer discussions about the most accurate predictive techniques, and more discussions about the act, ethics and implications of predicting astrologically.

So do something about it. Instead of making criticisms of the 'system' as a whole, be an agent for improvement in the system and take it upon yourself to write and disseminate some of the more ethical material. Or would that not be quite as much fun as finding the holes to stick your fingers through ? Hmmn...

I wonder who you have been studying with (or is this experience of what teachers do based on an expectation of being taught by the internet?)

The Internet experience is very much behind this. Isn't the Internet a huge part of astrological studies now? The Internet is a fantastic marketplace and many teachers who would go about their subject ethically and focused on the deeper issues in small local gatherings are tempted to keep a finger or two on the scales when weighing their goods on the Internet. The prize is widespread fame as well as cash coming in. The Internet has replaced the conference circuit as the road to expanded fame and fortune. The students want astrological proficiency and want it now. The Internet brings the teachers and students together and everyone talks high-speed astrology with some critical slow-speed issues being dropped.

So do something about it. Instead of making criticisms of the 'system' as a whole, be an agent for improvement in the system and take it upon yourself to write and disseminate some of the more ethical material.

But I am already speaking out at a very prominent astrological site and making a case for wider awareness of ethical and philosophical issues, at the risk of being ridiculed and unpopular. Compared to the discussions of technical issues and romance horary questions I'm bringing up something out of the ordinary for consideration, something that might not be as fun as a confident and ego-pleasing display of technical skill.

Deb wrote:

kirk wrote:And do keep in mind that Deb wanted that sunrise to matter, and not this one.

I don?t relate at all to your comments in this thread, but then I don?t recognise any of the traditional astrologers whose works and life-achievements I respect to have been money-grabbing, power-driven, or golden-egg-chasing. Exactly the opposite ? those that gained prominence did so because of their wisdom, insight, and intellectual genius. The wonder, really, is why does astrology always survive ? no matter what persecution, political repression or change of worldview that we experience? The theory of it is full of apparent insanity and astrologers are intelligent, well educated people; but yet it survives, besides requiring the brain to develop new methods of perception. This is an occult study that requires deep reflection, sincere study, years of personal maturity ? it might have a popular appeal but few stay the course long enough to be able to fully understand the works such as Kepler?s or John Dee?s.
It is, (I think), in many ways, a dangerous study, and it can make slightly crazy people tip off the edge (because of the problem of trying to understand life, the universe and everything!); but there must be some kind of 'effort of will' going on to ensure that the right works get to the right student, because gravity alone would have buried astrology centuries ago.
Instead there have been regular waves of preservation and rediscovery. We might think that our generation is the one that is ?rediscovering? things, but the German astrologers of the Wittenberg region ? Montulmo, Regiomontanus, Schoener, Rheticus, and so on, prided themselves for being the generation that recaptured the lost works of the past. The monks who laboured to copy out the manuscripts did the same. The Arabs copied out the classical texts to make sure the contents were preserved. People assume that lost works of the past were wilfully destroyed but the reality is that works ceased to exist when new generations didn?t bother to reproduce and replace them. We have a tradition of astrology (no TM!) because it has withstood the pressure of time, fashion, and changing expectation, evolving/adapting in places, but always remaining capable of engaging intellectual and emotional interest. And - this point will not impress anyone, I know - my experience is that it works. Reliably so. I don't personally need it to, but I have found that it does.

There's plenty of ways to argue against the demise of astrology here and there being due to its lack of effectiveness. If astrology is so 'hard' to utilise effectively, as you suggest, then we shouldn't assume folks are always going to be around to do so.

I wouldn't be all that surprised if Psychological Astrology (i.e cross fertilisation of depth, humanistic and transpersonal psychology) left the radar a bit in the next 50yrs since it's so time consuming, and expensive, to 'master' and it may be that it's had it's golden period. I don't see many young folks coming through in this area.

But who's to say it won't be re-discovered 200 yrs down the line and someone comes along and says well it must have been nonsense otherwise it wouldn't have disappeared.

Someone was saying to me recently, I forget whom or where, that one factor at the end of the 17th century was the amount of 'charlatans' bidding for business. Seems to be the same today if you look around the Internet, so maybe then and now this effects people?s motivations to get involved. What's the point if at the end of the process it's a toss of the coin whether someone comes to see you or Mystic Meg or whoever?

I doubt if astrology in the near future will get it?s act together and seek to regulate since there are a few, maybe quite a few, ?charlatans? (in my view) who are seen as genuine astrologers . Although perhaps now?s the time with Pluto going through Capricorn to kick out those who go to far into the Dark and/or New age and end up presenting seamless nonsense.