Currently we are seeing a "clear" Jupiter/Neptune outpicturization: right now there is a lot of talk of economic turnaround, stock markets rallying, and some encouraging numbers. But it's all inflated expectations based on desperate hopes. the National and world economy has a long, long way to go before a "turnaround" can be seen.

Curtis

Currently we are seeing a "clear" Jupiter/Neptune outpicturization: right now there is a lot of talk of economic turnaround, stock markets rallying, and some encouraging numbers. But it's all inflated expectations based on desperate hopes. the National and world economy has a long, long way to go before a "turnaround" can be seen.

So you say, anyway. You make your declaration and we are supposed to just accept it. Is this astrology, or just someone's method of voicing opinion on a large and prominent stage?

20 million jobs are expected to be lost in the US this year, the US just added about 13 trillion dollars to it's debt in the last half year, foreclosures are at an all time high, jobs and industry are leaving the country. The bailouts went to offshore financial institutions Clear enough to me.

If you disagree with me, tell me now I am wrong. It's just my opinion anyway, you're not obligated to agree and I don't care if you do. If you're so concerned about my opinions contrary to yours, it could be because of the shakiness of your own convictions.

Jupiter + Neptune can equal "expanded delusions".

Hi your comment on "expanded delusions" brought to mind something I was going to post before . It strikes me that the movement of the conjunction through the signs could be equated to the "Big Idea" that colours that particular period. A bit like an earlier posting where someone brought up the post WWI Leo conjunciton and the chain of events leading to fascism with its "Hero" cult, and the fatherland etc./ The rise of nationalistic pride ruling international affairs. Just one angle I know... anyway with the conjunction in the opposite sign I'd guess we are seeing a greater awareness of the need for trans-national politics, but I guess the "little man" might suffer at the hands of the technocrats!!
mike c

Thinking on Aquarian big ideas , and considering the sign's round about connection with electricity etc. Plus of course the Jupiter/Neptune cycles connection with the discoveries of physics, astrophyiscs etc. THis month saw the completion of the National Ignition Facility in the US. This is a mega physics experiment that hasn't caught the public imagination in the same way the Large Hadron COllider did, but the ramifications are huge!! Its an attempt to create a tiny sun on the Earth by bombarding a hydrogen mix with a vast number of laser beams. Its an attempt to create controlled Fusion at temperatures way above the heat of the Sun, and take the world one step closer to the endless possibliities of fusion power generation etc.

http://www.energy.gov/news2009/7191.htm
mike c

Maybe it would be nice to repeat Galilei's 'observation' of Neptune in the early 17th century. He observed Jupiter and his moons and noted the position of a little star. Only in the 20th century this 'star' was identified as Neptune.

With a pair of binoculars and a stars magazine to find the positions and in a non-light-polluted sky it should be possible to find Neptune close to Jupiter as a little point.

Perhaps you may not identify one of the faint stars as Neptune so Galilei's observation will literally be repeated, seeing Neptune but just believing it's a star .

Only in the 20th century this 'star' was identified as Neptune.

I guess you meant 19th Century - a touch of Neptune fog methinks! :-)

Incidentally its Neptune's first birthday now of course having completed its first return since discovery!

mike c

Maybe it would be nice to repeat Galilei's 'observation' of Neptune in the early 17th century.

In January 1610, when Galileo observed Jupiter's Moons, Neptune was roughly 90 degrees from Jupiter. It is highly doubtful that his 3X telescope could see Neptune under any conditions, although years later he increased the magnification to about 30X. Galileo correctly identified four large Moons orbiting Jupiter (I think the current known total is 63). There is no evidence that he ever saw Neptune.

Tom

Hi again! one particular interesting manifestation of the Jupiter/Neptune in Aquarius conjunction may be the events that have overtaken the UK Parliament over the recent past. There has been widespread disgust and distrust of politicians fueled by the Parliamentary expenses row. Dissillusionment, cries for root and branch changes of these old institutions, and some kind of recompense for abuse of power by these "corrupt lawmakers" (JUst how Jupiter Neptune can you get!!!).
THe online version of the Spectator magazine discusses a historical parallel for this time in the events of 1843 , a time of "A venal House of Commons, a time of economic dislocation, an unpopular PM"

Astrologically 1843 is pertinent because it is when the Jupiter/Neptune conjunction lasted entered Aquarius. Using the tried and tested WIlliam coronation 1066 chart for the UK, Aquarius is the 11th House (by whole sign for the purposes of discussion). This house has long been regarded as representing the Parliament , especially the House of Commons!!!
cheers mike c

http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine ... ment.thtml

Hi again!... forgot to mention the events of 1843 concerned the murder of an influential banker who was also the Prime Minister's Private Secretary against a wave of popular disgust against the wealthy! It is interesting that according to the article his murder was somwhat suspicious since one of the curious facets of recent events is that the furore over Parliamentary expenses has been fomented by The Daily Telegraph newspaper which is the epitomy of an Establishment paper. So its the establishment undermining the establishment with secret machinations!
mike c

Tom wrote:It is highly doubtful that his 3X telescope could see Neptune under any conditions, although years later he increased the magnification to about 30X.

I'm sure you are in to this, Tom, but for the point of clarity it is not the magnification that decides whether Neptune can be observed or not, but the aperture of either mirror or refractive lens. It is the aperture that decides how much light the telescope is capable of collecting and how deep it is possible to penetrate into space. I have a 5-inch refractor myself. Images become blury at higher magnification and move swiftly across the visual area, unless the telescope is attached to some sort of mechanical drive. Lower magnification allows for crystal clarity and objects are easily observed in relation to one another. I prefer observing at lower magnifications unless there is an excess of light.

Both Uranus and Neptune are quite a disappointment. They may be identified, but that is about it. Those astronomers must surely have been a band of eccentrics. At any rate it is a wonder they managed to perform half the work that they actually did.

I guess you meant 19th Century....

No, I didn't make a mistake. Galileo made his observations and had noted some stars in the vicinity of Jupiter. One of them cannot be traced on starmaps. When computerprograms were developed calculating correct planetary positions wasn't difficult anymore. It was easy to find Neptune again.

There are dozens of more sightings in which astronomers noted Uranus and Neptune as stars in their maps. Later these 'stars' couldn't be found again. Some astronomers indeed had made mistakes but some had really unconsciously seen one of these planets, like Flamsteed's 'observation' of Uranus http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1968PASP...80..217R

In January 1610, when Galileo observed Jupiter's Moons, Neptune was roughly 90 degrees from Jupiter. It is highly doubtful that his 3X telescope could see Neptune under any conditions, although years later he increased the magnification to about 30X. Galileo correctly identified four large Moons orbiting Jupiter (I think the current known total is 63). There is no evidence that he ever saw Neptune.

It sounds incredible but it's really true.
(here are parts of a text I wrote last December in another forum)
The date that Galilei 'saw' Neptune but took it for a star is december 28th 1612 when in conjunction with Jupiter. (source: preface of Jean Meeus' "Astronomical Formulae for Calculators" (the 'predecessor' of his "Astronomical Algorithms")).

With the Swisseph test page you can find out that in 1613 Jupiter occulted Neptune. This is an extremely rare event!
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/swetest.htm http://www.astro.com/cgi/swetest.cgi?b= ... rg=-ut0.34
Moment of ecliptical conjunction
4.1.1613 greg. 0:33:59 UT
Jupiter 176?29' 4.4759 1?20'12.2876
Neptune 176?29' 4.4934 1?20'16.9357
The difference of latitude (on the right) is only several arcseconds. The radius of Jupiter seen from earth is at smallest about 0?0'20" so there was an occultation. By the way this was a geocentric one, and therefore making the event just even more extraordinary. Here's a picture found on the internet (composed of modern photo's) how it would have looked like through a very large telescope. http://www.lns.cornell.edu/~seb/celestia/jon1.jpg
Here's a list of other mutual planetary occultations. http://www.go.ednet.ns.ca/~larry/planets/occltlst.htm
Here Galileo's observation date is also mentioned.
At the moment I cannot find how long the occultation lasted but it might have lasted a couple of days! With Neptune so near Jupiter the days round I think the occultation would have made the observation impossible. But when quite further from Jupiter, it is possible to see Neptune with a 17 millimeter telescope like Galilei's, especially in the Mediterranean clear skies without light pollution.

Here is a study of Galilei's drawings. http://www.pacifier.com/~tpope/Accessin ... cripts.htm
scroll to the head "Examples of Item Retrieval".

If there is an astrological meaning of mutual planetary occultations perhaps this occultation has as meaning that it indicates the start and the development of modern science, but this is just a guess of mine .