Do I have an unknown child?

The question is asked by a male who wishes to know whether he has an unknown child from a relationship that dates back to the mid 90's. The relationship was cut short, and also the contact with the woman, but he has had a strange feeling since hearing from a friend of his previous sweetheart who contacted him with a message of somewhat cryptical content. This has left him puzzling. It is an interesting question and stranger things have been known to happen. Can astrology help the gentleman with a clue? Should he pursue to try and find an answer?
The question is asked on the Day of Mercury and in the Hour of Mars. Mars shares the same powers as the sign on the ascendant and it's Lord, the Sun, namely warm and dry. The chart is radical, however, the blending of the Lord of the Day and the Lord of the Hour may indicate some controversy. The Ascendant and it's lord, the Sun; the question concerns a matter of off-spring and fatherhood. The Sun, who is the significator of the querent, is unaspected in the chart and it would seem probably that he was isolated or not tied in to the entire picture. Mercury is retrograde in the 10th house and casts his antiscia to the cusp of the 12th house. Maybe a hidden secret relating to the past.

The Moon is co-significator of the question, is located in Cancer in the 11th house and conjuct the Part of Spirit at 16CN59. There could be a question of honour, heritage and kinship. The Moon is fruitful. Jupiter, Lord of the 5th house, is angular in Aquarius on the cusp of the 7th house. There could be an unknown child that he is separated from, also observing that Jupiter is conjunct Neptune. Together with Chiron. There is a reception between Jupiter and the Moon, noting that he is in her face and she in the sign of his exaltation. Rulership and disposition by exaltation do in my experience tell stories of the extra-ordinary. Capricorn is intercepted and concealed in the 5th house and could be an indication of a buried secret. Jupiter is sextile Mars, who has his exaltion in the intercepted sign in the 5th. Saturn, the ruler of Capricorn, is direct and on the cusp of the 2nd house. The Sun, significator of the querent, is trine the Part of Fortune located at 7LI15 and on the cusp of the 3rd; His suspicions may be true.

I concluded my interpretation of the chart by informing the gentleman that there was sufficient evidence in the chart to give reason for his suspicions and that he should proceed to make inquiries into that matter in a careful and discreet matter. A possibility could be that the woman was pregnant but had the fetus removed, however I do not find evidence of this in the chart. Jupiter, who is angular and Lord of the 5th, was himself hidden away and fostered up in the unknowingness of his father, Saturn. All this leads me to support the idea of an unkown child.

Feel welcome to adding your comments and join in exploring the chart. What do you think?

Wow, i must say, it is a very interesting chart!

There's one thing that I instantly spotted in this chart, probably before anything else and that is that the Moon only a degree away of the point of the exaltation of Jupiter! I'm not sure what the meaning could be but, given that the Querent is asking about the posibility of having a child with someone, the co-ruler of the question obviously exalting the ruler of the matter inquired ( the L5) should be very important! of, course it could also be pointing into the direction of the Querent's main cencern. But I'd say there are more layers in the (potential) interpretation of that placement; the Moon is also the Woman and the Mother i.e. The One Who Gives Birth and, again, the Querent is interested in finding out whether the mother has been keeping their child a secret all these years (She- the Lady is exalting the child in the sign of her own rulership). It is also interesting that the Lady is exalting the ruler of the child in a mute sign- a silent Woman or a silent Mother.
Oddly enough, it is all happening in the 11th- the house of other people's children. Or- the woman's house of children (5th from the 7th). And in a fruitful sign.

On the other hand- the sign intercepted inside the 5th is ruled by L7, the Saturn! so, if the interception is a secret about their offspring, then it is under the woman's control, sort of speaking.


The child's ruler (if there is a child, of course) is sitting on the cusp of the 7th (the Querent's partner)and if we examine the shape of the Saturn it is on the cusp of the derived 8th house of the woman (don't like that) and on the cusp of the child's derived 10th:
so: the ruler of the sign intercepted inside the child's 1st going "to his mother" or to the house of dominant parent(the child's derived 10th).... while its main ruler is on the cusp of the the house that belongs to the woman whom we think is the mother here (the querent's partner, the radical 7th)- the child is HERS, "owned" by the mother, from both standpoints.

As for the ruler of the 5th cusp, like you said- it's tightly conjunct the cusp of his ex partner's house and with the planet of secrets! The Neptunes being on the 7th cusp alone is probably a sign enough of a secret regarding their relationship let alone when conjunct the ruler of the Quesited.
The Moon is in her own sign BUT also intercepted (I never dismiss the interceptions and in a question of this kind I'd say they could be telling a big part of the story) and applying to the Venus/Mars (men/woman, relationship) conjunction by SQUARE ! It looks almost trivial in a way! )) The position of that conjunction is the 9th or the woman's derived 3rd house, 3/9 axes anyway and you said that the question was actually triggered by some kind of information (messages etc.). Still,with no communication between him and her!

Also, the Moon is in the sign of the detriment of Saturn (her ruler and the ruler of the sign intercepted inside the 5th). The Querent's ruler is well received by Mercury, the ruler of the 11th cusp and the 2nd. and notice that both L1 and L7 love Mercury (children?).

Wow, I just can't help but to think that it's the Moon that is telling the biggest part of the story here and that there, indeed could be a child involved. Only I don't like the L7 inside the derived 8th, i don't like the fact that it is in the detriment of L5 and that her ruler, as well as the Moon can not "see" the ruler of the child! Here I start wondering whether the pregnancy was indeed terminated! (bah) That said- the Asc is very late and both L7 and L1 are in Barren signs! And so is the Asc . The Mars is squaring the Moon in Cancer, the Venus is hurt by the same square....

Do you recon that lily's "Is the rumor true" section could be of some help here as well?

possibly an oversimplification, But, Lord of the 5th house, children on the cusp of the partner, mother etc...

child of querent with its mother

I also note that the PoF on this chart is conj the 3rd house cusp.
Communication is the key, the 3rd house being rulled by venus, I'd suggest, that the communication be gentle and delicate, the right words being very important.

as I said, possibly an oversimplification, Granny

aglaya wrote: Do you recon that lily's "Is the rumor true" section could be of some help here as well?

That occured to me too. And what about the next paragraph "Of Councell or advice given, Whether it be for Good or Evill"
Matthew

Andrew --

I have thought about this question for a couple of days, and with the availability of DNA tests nowadays, I suspect astrologers get fewer paternity questions than we used to. That said, I have gotten a handful of such questions in my practice, and because the question is so very sensitive, I put extra effort into finding traditional sources on this topic. I cite some of these below.

As you say, the question is radical due to the humoral agreement between the ascendant and Mars, the Lord of the hour. The querent sounds like a somewhat fiery type, being signified by the Sun and Leo, but he seems thoughtful and intelligent, as the Sun is in the terms of Jupiter, which elevates the mind, and the moon sextile Mercury and Saturn, giving the impression of someone still fairly active (the fire emphasis) but with forethought. There seems to be a mark on the right side of the face, near the neck.

Perhaps we should first see if the woman in question has a child or not, and Bonatti discusses this on pages 446-447. He looks at the placement of Venus, and indicates that if it is in Aries, there is a child. Still, as aglaya pointed out, Saturn is in a barren sign but it is in aspect with a very fertile moon in the 11th (the mother's fifth) and trine Mercury, Lord of the 11th. So there is a pretty good possibility a child is in the picture.

William Lilly does not address the question of "is the child mine" but Bonatti and Sahl do. Bonatti's Book of Astronomy, page 446, addresses if the conceived child is said to be the querent's. Basically, he looks for an aspect between the querent's planets and the Lord of the fifth house, preferably with reception. If there is no aspect and if the fifth house or its Lord is afflicted, the child is not his.

There is no aspect between the moon and Jupiter or the Sun and Jupiter. There's also no emplacement between Jupiter and the first house, or the Sun and the fifth house. According to Bonatti's criteria, the child is not legitimate (i.e. the querent's, whether he is married to the mother or not), because Mars afflicts the cusp of the fifth, as well as Jupiter. Jupiter does also aspect the 5H cusp, but without an aspect, this is not enough to show legitimacy. Because this question is binary, I would expect to see pretty strong evidence that the child was his, and there's insufficient connection between the querent's significators and that of the child.

Sahl treats the same question, but much more shortly, on page 67. According to him, if the fifth sign is afflicted, the child is not legitimate; if aspected by benefics, it is legitimate. We have an aspect from Mars and an aspect from Jupiter, so this is not helpful.

Interestingly, in determining legitimacy, neither Bonatti nor Sahl discuss turning the chart and looking at the 11th house, the fifth from the seventh. I have followed along with their instruction, but wanted to point this out.

Best wishes,
Nina

Thank you for your excellent input and references, Nina. I will have to give the matter some thought and maybe some others will have som ideas. However, there is reception between Jupiter and the Moon involving houses 5, 7 and 11. Mars, the Lord of the hour, is trine the ascendant and also sextiles the lord of the 5th. I believe this provides the testimonies searched for.

Great observations!

Andrew -

My pleasure; thanks for posting such an interesting question! The Moon is indeed received by Jupiter, but not vice versa. This would not be enough for me (if the reception was mutual, even with no aspect, I'd be more likely to say he had a child), and Bonatti/Sahl do seem to insist on an aspect. In any case, hope you share the outcome if you find out.

Best wishes,
Nina

Great examples!
I've visited your site about a dozen times, nice to see you here, Nina!

Andrew, does the Querent have (more/other) children? (I'm asking because of the Moon in Cancer aspect)

Nina - Jupiter is in the face of the Moon!

Andrew -

Yes, it is, but that is insufficient for a mutual reception, at least from my perspective. I follow Abu Ma'shar, who states that you want reception by at least two of the minor dignities (triplicity, term, face) for it to be effective. Face is not quite enough.

Best wishes,
Nina

The Moon does not have any terms alotted to herself, as we know. However, Jupiter and the Moon are friends by nature. They are both located in appropriate houses and in signs that agree with their natural powers. Furthermore, Jupiter is the prime signifer of that what is queried about. He is a fortune and angular. From Lilly one can deduct that when the fortunes are angular the chart does is either affirmative or does bring about good.

Unknown or unseen:

5th lord jupiter close to the cusp of 7th but about to go retrograde and below the horizon- the child is not with the lady in question- she may have given the baby for adoption or aborted.
-Retrograde Pluto in 5th-coming to light or expulsion.
-Part of female child(Child, Female = Asc + Venus - Moon)in Gemini-lord mercury under sun's beam,rertograde and conjunct Algol-which would be culminating soon.

Sun squares Saturn-his approach will be rebuffed by the lady.

I would have advised him not to bother.

PD