Tom wrote:

He discusses in some depth the solar and lunar returns for King Gustav Adolphus of Sweden for the year that he died (in combat). Morin uses the locations of the King at the time of the returns.
Tom

True?! For some coincidence I have on my desktop Gustave solar return from another XVI century astrologer. I was planning something for my blog.
Now - after your indication- I will check Morin, if i can understand his Latin, anyway I will try, at least.
Thanks for your input

margherita

Tom, through my personal experience and research, I totally agree with you that any return chart should be calculated to where the native resides (location). As you noted, different locations from the birth location changes the angles and house cusps of a Return Chart from the birth location. This makes an important delineated difference with Return Charts, regardless of what astrological system the astrologer practices.

Also, the Precession factor is very important for casting an accurate timed Return Chart.

?If an astrologer prefers to use the Tropical Zodiac, a regular correction for Precession must be applied to Return Charts. A second method of overcoming the effects of precession is to use a precession-free reference system, that is, a zodiac which by its very nature is unaffected by precession in the first place. Such an alternative framework exists. It is called the Sidereal Zodiac. Like the Tropical Zodiac, it is based on twelve equal divisions of the ecliptic circle. Unlike the Tropical Zodiac, it is not beholden to the equinoxes and is therefore totally undistorted by precession. The issue here is not so much one of zodiacs, as of something far more fundamental to the essence of things astrological. Therefore, one can achieve the desired effects with Return Charts by either (1) using the Tropical Zodiac and correcting for precession or (2) using the precession-free Sidereal Zodiac.
If neither of these two methods are used, a Solar Return will be six hours in error by age 18, twelve hours by age 36, and an entire day off by the time a person attains the age of 72?.

So, we see and can understand this is very important for Return Charts, because it means a huge difference in the correct position of the 4 angles, other house cusps, and the all important position of the Return Moon. Thanks for your post Tom.

Regards, Steve

This is only tangentially relevant to the discussion, but with regard to Gustav II Adolf (Gustavus Adolphus), it should be noted that there were several birth times in circulation for him (nothing new under the sun!), although they all (?) give him a Sagittarius ascendant. Morin claimed to have predicted the king's death (by primary directions) but that his timing had been off due to an imprecise birth time, so he rectified the chart after the event. Placidus used a time about half an hour different from Morin's, and Partridge a third time. It would be interesting to hear who Margherita's 16th century astrologer is, and what time he used.

I think Volguine recommended precession.

Martin Gansten wrote: It would be interesting to hear who Margherita's 16th century astrologer is, and what time he used.

It seems I was hasty in quoting by heart

I took the chart from Andrea Argoli, De diebus criticis et aegrorum decubitu (1651) but in this case Argoli did not mention solar returns, generally he does, for example some pages before he cast the solar return for Charles Stuart, king of England.

In every case, for Gustavus Adolphus, Argoli gives the birth chart, the decumbiture and a couple of deadly directions.

Argoli says that he wrote him a year before King's death to advise him of the danger because of these directions - like Morin I'm reading


This is the chart I took from Gallica,

margherita

Volguine was a strong proponent of relocation... but I didn?t find any quote or reference in his book to precession, and according to his examples, I am inclined to believe he didn?t ever did it.

Learning about profections also convinced me to stick with the birth location. We are supposed to use to use returns in conjunction with other methods, like profections and primary directions. Profections advance at a regular pace of a sign a year and the idea is to compare that rhythm of the profections with the Sun's revolution, which includes a natural rhythm of diurnal motion for that place ? the rising of the signs above the horizon and onward through the sky. The signs on the house cusps are part of the complete picture for that period in that place and therefore of the complete cycle: the combination of the Sun's (or Moon's) zodiacal and diurnal cycles. If you change locations you are messing around with the natural flow of the diurnal motion ? you are turning the dial either forward or backward at will. If your return chart for the birth location, the radix, says it's time for Libra to be on the ASC and you switch to Virgo rising because you're in a different location, you've altered and weakened symbolic meaning rooted in the developing birth chart. You've stepped away from the primacy of symbolism to a preference for material literalism: 'I am a physical object located here, not there'. These days we like to use the facts.

To me the birth location respects the complete cycle and is a fuller acknowledgment of cycles. The emphasis on current location seems more of an approach of 'soaking up the rays' at a location and being under the celestial influence as an object on Earth. The use of the birth location shows an appreciation of cycles. The relocated chart would seem to favor mere transits. The relocated chart as simply a transit chart may have some validity, but the birth location has more integrity regarding cycles of time and motion based on a birth chart.

Hi Kirk
I believe that you are right when you say that the recolocation chart gained favour because of a more materialistic view.

I also believe that other thing that favour it, was when techniques like the ones you mentioned, profection, firdar, etc, lost their place in the predictive tool box of the astrologer. When you only have the transit planets and the houses, recolocation suddenly starts to be a lot more important.

best regards

Volguine was a strong proponent of relocation... but I didn?t find any quote or reference in his book to precession, and according to his examples, I am inclined to believe he didn?t ever did it.

Mea culpa; you're right. I confused precession with relocation.

There has been rather a lot of emphasis in modern astrology on return charts ... precessed or non-precessed ... relocated or non-relocated ... maybe because of the loss of some traditional techniques. Modern astrology is very transit-happy ... various transit charts, return charts and so forth. The irony is that all these planets whizzing by (or in the form of a frozen souffl?) actually seem to complicate the art of prediction ... Maybe the attempt to simplify astrology has ended up by making it more complex?

Hi, Andrew

when you see authors like Abu Mashar, it seem to me that his use of Solar returns was mainly to see the condition and strenght of time lords against other significators.

Let?s say that the direction of the ASC is afflicted by an ugly mars. This direction will bring more catastrophe if in the solar return mars is also afflicted and aspecting the terms of the SR ascendant.

I use term direction with the natal chart as it's incredibly useful, especially directing the ascendant. But - I've also compared SRs for both natal and relocated for years when Really Important Things happened, and the relocated SR always tells the story better. That's the one where the planets end up on angles, etc.

I'm honestly perplexed, but it does seem to work.

yuzuru wrote:Volguine was a strong proponent of relocation... but I didn?t find any quote or reference in his book to precession, and according to his examples, I am inclined to believe he didn?t ever did it.

Recently I bought a 2nd hand Dutch (1985) translation of Volguine's 'Techniques des revolutions solaires' with a foreword of him of 1972 to the 4th edition. Until now I haven't had the time to study the book but at the end of the book there are three appendixes of a few pages of three authors, 'Pluto', 'Maurice Froger' (there's also a 16th century M.Froger but this one is probably of the 20th) and 'Maurice Privat'. The second (Froger's) is about precession correction/sidereal use. Volguine indeed emphasises the use of the location at the birthdays. As far as I see he doesn't mention Morin de Villefranche but he does mention the 16th century Junctin de Florence (Junctinus). I hope this is a recommendatory book for I bought it to get a taste of solar returns.

I'm still in dubio about how to view the issue of location theoretically. The sole use of the birthplace assures that nothing can be changed by simply going to another place. The use of the new location seems also a good way since when we move to another place we adapt to the diurnal rythm over there. I wonder if we can have astrological jetlag's .