Precessed?

I used Janus, so will go look to make sure I did it right...

(Yes, I know you can't normally read death just from a Solar Return, but the SR does exist as a symbol and THAT must be noticed.

I tried in Solar Fire and got the same chart...


James

A review of the proposed birthtimes from 11:14, the one that Jiger offered up, and the rest of the 11:somethings all still work for the Hindu chart. I think it's safe to say it's in that time frame. Interestingly enough the Jiger chart puts Jupiter in the eighth house of the navamsa chart. also the Vimsotari dasa sub-sub-period at death becomes Jupiter, as in Ketu/Rahu/Jupiter. The Jaimini chara dasa is unchanged.

Tom,
Thanks I should always check the coodinates when casting relocation charts, It said Los Angeles but the coordinates were for Gary Indiana. I feel that the gemini rising in his relocated SR just supports the 23:53 birthtime.In his death chart[for 2:26PM PDT] Mercury is at 15 degrees Gemini in the 8th house.

I agree with Tom. Keep an open mind, but keep it simple!

I remember when I first looked up his birth time on the internet a few years ago while I was intensively studying charts of stage performers and dancers in particular, I found that 10:00 AM chart and took it with a high dose of caution as such round numbers always make me wonder if someone had just used the approximate time given by someone . I didn't really think it was telling anything about him so I soon dismissed it. Now, while looking at all these charts I'm experiencing the very same thing- some of them just don't seem to fit his story! Of course, this chart could be just an example of the situation when we'd actually want to find something in a chart (don't get me wrong, the delineations and rectification suggestion I have read in this thread are so thorough and complex- my compliments! )! - it can't be easy to study the chart of the most famous person in the world!

Still, when i first opened that (probably useless chart) I instantly checked the Ascendant just to compare its shape and the shape of its ruler to his physical appearance and, the moment I thought I should do that I started laughing out loud- well, how does MJ actually look like?! In order to compare his ascendant with his "natural", unchanged or original physical identity, we'd basically have to look at his 30+ years old pictures. On the other hand- his appearance and the results of the interventions on his natural look were one of his most recognisable signs. So, I thought- I'd basically have to find the Ascendant that says enough about his constant transformation and shocking changes, nose-job overdoing, even the change of his skin colour. That should be a complex set of influences on his Asc and its ruler. Mutable sign- not enough; I've also seen stressfully aspected Venus in Gemini in some in charts of the people who "loved" plastic surgery but this man had gone way further then them; Uranus; Pluto..... I got lost.
Then I thought some crucial moments in his life could help so- what about the marriage? But- again, what do we actually know about his first marriage. They used to say they were in love while the general perception was that it was a commercial sham. And even so, they're not the first couple people have thought of in a such way but still, I don't think there had been so many open questions regarding the couple's intimacy since Jackie Kennedy married Aristotel Onasis. If people thought Onasis was old and ugly (not that it changes anything )- why did so many of them think that a huge sex symbol was not sleeping with his spouse ? Was he percieved as an asexual person? That could be another thing to think about when trying to determine his exact Ascendant! But the truth is- we don't know if it was a real marriage at all.
His children? There have been numerous speculations on his children not being his at all. i don't know if they are but the fact is- it is very hard to check the validity of the 5th cusp in any of the charts suggested because we simply do not know enough! That said- what we do know a lot about is his fondness for children in general. I recall seeing an old private Video taken on Jackson's property when he was only 12- he was holding his brother Tito's newborn baby in his hands and their father was saying how much Michael loved children and how much he loved holding them. He was well known for visiting child hospitals around the world, helping them, participating in humanitarian activities and, finally- he had even faced accusations of child molestation,trials and public crucifiction. And it was all triggered by the families of the children whom he used to spend a lot of time with in his home. So, my guess is that it's the 11th house along with his 1st and 10th that could be of the biggest help.

But, like I said: my main focus at the time was on his professional career as a performer and, now that I've opened the chart for the time suggested by bern23 (12:12 PM, as quarter past noon) it does look like I chart i'd "expect" to see.
Whichever it belongs to, the Venus/Uranus conjunction energy was extremely powerful in his case. Venus in leo- an obvious sign of his fashion taste but the conjunctuion has had a strong influence on his performances. He wasn't only a singer but one of the best dancers ever and an enormously imaginative and inventive one. He'd come up with a move and the rest of the world would start dancing in the streets and trying to copy it- literally. So, I thought there should be a very strong connection between the conjunction and the 10th. The Sun on the ascendant of the King of the Pop does look (maybe a bit trivial but) logical. Pluto on the Asc- constant change of himself as well the potential to change the world; a leader; a vulnerable person ina strong body; obsessiveness; ups-and-downs; the urge to become independent; a Phoenix bird. And the conjunction with the Sun just seals it- his wish to separate from his large family; his fear that he could be taken advantage of and a constant search for better advisers, co-operates, "servants"; the lack of self esteem; self destructive behaviour and also turning a "blind eye" on upseting things i.e. the escape from the reality!
Here I do have a bit of a trouble seeing him as a Virgo rising (especially my Asc is close to his) but i don't think I have any problem seeing him as a person described by Mercury placed inside the Leo in 12th.
The Sun is coming from the 12th - I've seen it several times in charts of people "living on the other side of the law" as well as in the charts of people who had never crossed that line- still, they all ended up in jail at a certain point in their lives, be it for a year or a day, innocent or guilty. The Sun/Moon opposition (the Moon is the ruler of the 11th) could be a piece of the story about the accusations against him! The Moon going from the 11th into the 7th- the children becoming his open enemies, perhaps?! And, if the cusp of the 4th really does fall into Aries, than this Saturn inside the 4th and the ruler of the 4th squaring his Asc ruler could be a sign of the stressful relationship with his father. Could be.


What I'm still having trouble the inability (my inability) to find enough signs that would describe his professional beginnings; as suggested by Olivia, i think, there should a stronger Cancerian influence in a way. The Jupiter/Neptune conjunction is almost screaming the word "Neverland" only I'm not sure what it's doing on the 3rd cusp. Also, the cusp of the 7th doesn't seem to ring any bells! From what i've seen so far- people (including me ) which such placement can often choose a wrong partner and even divorce him/her soon after getting married but they seldom do it for practical reasons. The person may be wrong but they don't see it that way. And, since I basically do share the general public impression that it was not a love marriage I'm not sure if the cusp of his 7th should be where it is in this version. So, I tried moving the asc a bit; the critical yet Royal degree of Leo was pulling my attention from the 4 degrees Virgo all the time anyway (the King deserves a royal placement) and the moment I moved it to 29 Leo I realised that the time would then be 11:43, like suggested in one of the posts. Especially since the Asc on regulus unfortunatelly promisses more than just glory, could be very descriptive of his tragedy and wishes to be a grown-up child and immortal (his constant fear of death and aging). And to me, it does make at least a bit more sense. The Sun/Pluto conjunction stays inside the 1st and tightly conjunct Asc, the ruler of the 12ts stays Sun and the energy of the 12th is again brought into the 1st and Michael gets the Sun for the asc ruler which in my opinion works better than Virgo rising.
The hard-working Mars is sitting exactly on MC, the cusp is inside Taurus (artistic profession). The Mars in Taurus, squaring Venus/Uranus conjunction- we all know what one of his most famous dancing moves (after Moon-walking) looked like and what reactions were the first time he showed it! There's also the intercepted Gemini inside the 10th but, unfortunately, I still haven't figured mine let alone the one in this chart. It doesn't bring any more light to the marriage part of the story but I'm just a bit more keen to believe that it was 11:43 rather than 12:12.

What I'm still desperately trying to find in all of these charts is- Moonwalking! How come nothing seems to ring any bells! Unless it is the ruler of the sign intercepted inside the 10th close to his Ascendant and moving backwards -Mercury retrograde (in which case, I'd be even more keen to believe that he was either Virgo or Leo rising ).

bern23 wrote:(Hello everybody from another first-timer. )

Michael Jackson appears to be a tough nut to break.
Bern, Slovenia

It's funny and strange, actually. One would think that in over 40 years he had spent on stage and with all his popularity,his large family and almost every single member of his family constantly enjoying an enormous public attention, even the periods in which they were literally competing with each other in the the quantity of dirty laundry brought into public - no one can still say that he knows his actual birth time.

I'm very inclined to believe that he didn't want it to be revealed. That man wanted to be immortal. They say he even used to sleep in a hyperbaric chamber hoping it would help him to live longer (150 years, they say), now, i don't know if it was true but he did own one in his home. Maybe he didn't want anyone to say it was impossible.
After all, his eccentric behaviour has got nothing to do with it- maybe he simply didn't want to know what his natal chart looked like- that's a fair choice.

And for that same reason, i must admit that I feel rather uncomfortable when i start looking at any of these charts! Many astrologers would probably say that I was acting amateurish (which basically I am- an amateur) as his chart is a real treat for most astrologers but I just can't help but thinking- what if someone had had the actual time of birth and had published his delineated chart while he was still alive?!And I'm sure someone would have done that! One should be able to choose what he wants to hear! And some people don't even want to hear their medical test results! His life was severely evaded anyway and, if it really was his choice to keep that information a secret- I'm glad he succeded in that ! He was a man after all!

Hello all

Lynn Hayes blog recommended the speculative discussion here.

Liz Greene used the time of 12.45pm in her book 'Dark of the Soul', published in 2003. I don't know where Liz obtained this time, it is not mentioned in the book. (Co-incidentally Liz Greene is also widely assumed to have Scorpio rising).

This time is not listed at Astrodatabank. Does anyone recall when Lois changed the rating for the 11.53pm time?

I would be surprised if Liz published her brief thoughts on the chart only to discover it was the wrong time. The only comment in the book related to the time is her thoughts on the obsessional need to transform his appearance Scorpio/Pluto and the placement of the Sun/Pluto Conjunction and Moon/Pluto opposition in the 10th and 4th houses. The obsession is inherited and connected with his status.

Liz doesn't say this but I think if you don't like your father then you probably don't want to look like him and Scorpio rising is more disposed to fix the problem and transform the persona. I know this puts me in the minority here but Gemini rising is to light, superficial and mutable for Michael Jackson in my opinion. He has the same Venus/Uranus conjunction as Cat Stevens in the 9th house and they both converted to Islam, which may be more than a co-incidence.

Furthermore has anyone here contacted the Indiana authorities to ask if the time is usually recorded on the Birth Certificate? It is only available to the family according to the web site.


Lisa

aglaya wrote: And for that same reason, i must admit that I feel rather uncomfortable when i start looking at any of these charts! Many astrologers would probably say I'm acting amateurish (which basically I am- an amateur) as his chart is a real treat for most astrologers but I just can't help but thinking- what if someone had had the actual time of birth and had published his delineated chart while he was still alive?!And I'm sure someone would have done that! One should be able to choose what he wants to hear! And some people don't even want to hear their medical test results! His life was severely evaded anyway and, if it really was his choice to keep that information a secret- I'm glad he succeded in that ! He was a man after all!

Not amateurish at all. I think my Jupiter rx in 10 conjuncting the North Node and Spica (it sure didn't manifest as money!) may be why I've known so many famous people - and I've helped spread disinformation and confusion about birth times for them occasionally, too. I was, perhaps perversely, delighted, to see a deliberately wrong birth time I'd started saying turn up in a Very Respectable Book on natal charts once, with either an A or AA rating

I don't do famous people charts unless the person is my client, or it's somebody who's been dead 100 years or more - preferably longer. It's too voyeurish. I know celebrities have to give up a lot of privacy, but in our society, it's too much. And birth times out there for anyone to see is crossing that line. For me, anyway.

And this discussion is purely hypothetical. Michael Jackson is dead. We can never know a correctly rectified chart, because no predictions can be made from it.

Rest in peace.

Hello

Re: "We can never know a correctly rectified chart because no predictions can be made from it."

Two points.

One, if I (or anyone) use 20 events and rectify MJ's chart and using that chart correctly "predict" 10 other events, then that is confirmation, whether Michael waits for the worms or not. (If events that we KNOW, lead to a birthtime that we BELIEVE, then finding corroboration for the other major events lets us KNOW the birthtime is right. Were this not the case, then anyone could say that NO ONE's chart can be rectified after they are dead, which is, of course, ridiculous.)

Two, in the history of astrology, there have been more correct predictions made from incorrect charts than could even be tallied. Often, these charts and predictions end up being published, much to skeptics' delight.

James

Hello,

Re: "Keep an open mind, but keep it simple!"

Velocity = Init-Vel + (Time * Acceleration)

...is also simple, but it's also wrong.

The Sun revolving around the Earth was a nice, simplistic explanation for the viewable heavens, but also wrong.

Solar Returns without Precession?

These things come in threes.

James

I think it is clear that whatever time he may have been born, the Solstice and ensuing new Moon in Cancer opposing Pluto had to be pretty prominent for him. He did have his Chiron return recently and Chiron square natal Mars...also Pisces Moon opposed Ceres, both squared by natal Saturn, and Saturn was on his Ceres just now. Saturn=father. His father told him his nose was ugly...a lifetime of hurt from that one. There's a 9 PM conjectured time of birth, but I am leaning toward Saturn rising in Sag...