?Vedic astrologer Chakrapani Ullal was Michael Jackson's astrologer in the late '80's? [...] ?Chakrapani was given the time of 7:33 PM by Michael, who did not say where he obtained this time. To help facilitate privacy, Chakrapani read for Micheal at Michaels own home for at least the initial reading. After that, he read for him many times during the time frame of 1988 and 1989?.

We know that MJ was friends with Deepak Chopra, and there is no doubt that Chopra and Chakrapani would know eachother, or 'of' eachother. The last i heard was that Chakrapani was in L.A., where he based his practice. He is one of the preeminent Hindu astrologers in the west. I feel like i remember seeing the 19.33 chart some years back. Have any of the western astrologers here tried that time? It's a strong chart. (an albeit obvious chart) I believe MJ would have been averse to having such 'sensitive' information out in public. Would Chakrapani have shared the real birthtime? Would he have been instructed by MJ to purposely share an erroneous time?

Curtis, what indicators in the Hindu chart do you use to support the 23.43 time? And how do you get Mars in the first house? I have Mars firmly in Aries in the twelfth.

Also, Jiger, I wish i would have had the courage to mention mid-May/early summer of 2012 as the start of a period of re-examining MJ's work. That's what I have as well.

I've been away from astrology (self-imposed) for a few years now. I'm glad i found this forum; i forgot how much fun and ultimately breathtaking the sky can be.

Hello GR,

I don't want to argue about it. Deb has requested that we not and so, since it's her forum, I can't disrespect the host.

I will point out a logical error in your argument. At first when I mention that the equation breaks down, you say the equation "IS correct".

Later in your message, you quote my comments about the equation breaking down and then start your (2nd line) by agreeing with me. ("Yes......")

The darts approach....let's throw stuff up on the wall and pray to God something sticks is not nearly so effective as pointed, relevant comments founded in logic and experience.

In short, at velocities close to the speed of light, Newtonian equations break down. Arguing about it is totally pointless.

James

Hello Eddy,

You seem familiar...

Using the Topocentric System for Primary Directions is much more involved than just using Topocentric Houses.

At any rate, you would need to ask someone with a better grasp on the exact methodology of using Topocentric System of Primary Directions. My interest and adoption of the system relates to the results from that system, not from some particular reasoning. It was purely empirical.

Had another system led me to as strong a correlation between aspects and events, I would surely have adopted that system. There is no bias. Whatever works would suit me just fine....it's just that Topocentric Primary Directions WORK. (ALL the other methods did NOT. And I tried all the Primary Directions options in Janus, Kepler, Solar Fire, and Morinus. Nothing close. No relevance in symbology.)

If you don't believe me, by all means DON'T take my word for it. Use the system, get your birthtime down to seconds (without that you can't even USE Topocentric Primary Directions), and then look at the events in your life. The aspect relevancy will blow you away. The other thing is the SUPER-TIGHT orbs that are involved. (usually from 0? 0' up to 0? 11' or so)

Other than, "here, this is something that works. Try it yourself", I don't know what I can really say other than, "you snooze, you lose."

Before I bought Polaris, I had used Alexander Marr's program Astro (old DOS program, FREE) to MANUALLY rectify my chart to seconds. Once I had Polaris and entered my Event data, the SAME birthtime that I painstakingly honed in on over HOURS, was the SAME birthtime that Polaris showed had the highest count of RELEVANT aspects. (taking only minutes)

James

Hello Olivia,

I appreciate your sharing your feelings on what should or shouldn't be discussed concerning Michael Jackson.

As a public figure (he has made MILLIONS, many, many times over from that same public), it is natural that he is someone that is scrutinized by that same public. The fact that he was such a "different" sort makes him especially fruitful to study astrologically.

You did say, "But I hate to see anyone's death being turned into a circus, or in this case - potentially more of a circus than his life was." In two lifetimes of nothing but "circus building" the one could never even reach the level of the other.

James

Hello Patricia,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I think you are the only person (that I remember) that puts forth a Libra Ascendant. Though I don't think that that is correct, I can see the reasoning...the man surely WAS obsessed about his appearance among other things.

I put for the Gemini Ascendant (as per Starkman's rectification). It just makes sense to me. The very first thing that one thinks about when looking at Michael Jackson is the inherent sense of duality, "is this a younger black man or is this an older white woman?!" I put forth, he was BOTH!

At least give the Gemini rising chart a LOOK. Everything from his Neverland to his home full of weirdness such as hyperbaric chamber, Etc.! can be understood through his Uranus at the IC. All the sexual secrets and questions and ultimately the thing most damaging to his image can be understood through the 12th House Mars. His Father's effect on Michael's needs, mentality and self-worth can be seen through the Saturn-Moon square (Moon r. 2 & 3, self-worth and mindset). His workaholic approach can be seen through the 6th House stellium containing Node, Jupiter, Neptune, and the Vertex. His obsessive thrust of his sexuality before the public, including but of course not limited to, the fact that he regularly "checked his package" explained through the compulsive Pluto-Moon quindecile.
It's all there and more. This is the chart that works for me. To me, it CLICKS. The correlation w/ events through time is the clincher.

You don't have to agree, but I ask that you at least consider.

There IS one thing from your post that I must comment upon. You say that "nothing will convince me of their accuracy" (Solar Returns) and then after that you ask if anyone "knows a book I should have read that will convince me I will be forever grateful..." So in one short paragraph, you have said that NOTHING will convince you of their accuracy and then ask if anyone can recommend a book that will convince you. If nothing will convince you, no book recommendation would have a purpose, your mind is already made. You said as much in your own words.

James

Hello James,

Thanks for the reply. I will look a bit further on the internet for the maths of primary directions in Topocentric. Since the houses resemble Placidus the issues at high northern latitudes probably will be the same and some may use the Otto Ludwig method of polar horoscopes worked out by Michael Wackford.

Hello Eddy,

You are welcome!

Good luck in your quest... share your findings!

James

Hallo James.

Everything from his Neverland to his home full of weirdness such as hyperbaric chamber, Etc.! can be understood through his Uranus at the IC. All the sexual secrets and questions and ultimately the thing most damaging to his image can be understood through the 12th House Mars. His Father's effect on Michael's needs, mentality and self-worth can be seen through the Saturn-Moon square (Moon r. 2 & 3, self-worth and mindset). His workaholic approach can be seen through the 6th House stellium containing Node, Jupiter, Neptune, and the Vertex. His obsessive thrust of his sexuality before the public, including but of course not limited to, the fact that he regularly "checked his package" explained through the compulsive Pluto-Moon quindecile.

And of course all of this can be said about my recitified TOB as well! Uranus IS really in the fourth in my rectification AND in close conjunction with the IC. One of the few things that can be done is to study the progressed MC (by SA) against real biographical events in MJ:s life - 15 minutes in birth time means almost 4 years IRL...See my example 1 earlier plus my first posting a couple of days before.

Hello jiger,

In Topocentric Primary Directions, the time changes even faster...

Using the Starkman rectified time gives the following aspects at his death...using Topocentric Primary Directions.

8th Conjunct MC (d) 0? 1'
12th Conjunct MC (c) 0? 1'
Neptune Semisquare MC (d) 0? 1'
Saturn Sesquisquare 8th (d) 0? 1'
Pluto Semisquare Saturn (d) 0? 1'
There's more, but how many different ways do we need to SEE it?

I find the symbolism striking...

James

Hi James

Thank you for your considered response... glad you liked my input even if you didn't agree with it!

You said...."At least give the Gemini rising chart a LOOK. Everything from his Neverland to his home full of weirdness such as hyperbaric chamber, Etc.! can be understood through his Uranus at the IC. All the sexual secrets and questions and ultimately the thing most damaging to his image can be understood through the 12th House Mars. His Father's effect on Michael's needs, mentality and self-worth can be seen through the Saturn-Moon square (Moon r. 2 & 3, self-worth and mindset). His workaholic approach can be seen through the 6th House stellium containing Node, Jupiter, Neptune, and the Vertex."

I have looked at the Gem Asc chart.... and yes I do see what you and others are talking about... However, as a Gemini Rising person myself, with Uranus on the IC, with Mars in the 12th, and a packed 6th, I can't see anything there that suggests I have any of the qualities/foibles of MJ (sadly or perhaps better stated gladly!) The Moon-Saturn square will be evident in any chart of any timing... and even some with those planets ruling MC/IC axis.

Thank you for your patience on this... As you can see from the reference to my chart.... maybe I just have to play devil's advocate. I am probably wrong with my version at 17.32 Lib Asc, and you are all right and I would like to do more research on MJ's chart... I fully acknolwedge many events were pinged off by SA and SProg, between aspecting planets without even using whichever angles. What I will say is that in quoting the aspects and angles which you did, I can say that I have similar, and yes I have other things going which are different to MJ, but the reasons given are not (in my view) sufficient to suggest he would become iconic. For the record... I also looked at the Pisces Asc chart, which I though worthy of taking serious.

Last but not least, I think you have been a little harsh with your comments re the SR's.... My closing caveat was...
"If anyone out there knows a book I should have read that will convince me I will be forever grateful... "

Cheers!

Oh and by the way.... I'm no workaholic.... even with Jupiter, Neptune, Vx, and Node in the 6th!!!!

Hello Patricia,

Thank you for your comments.

It is always enriching to read others' comments and see where they are coming from...

I'm sorry if you found my Solar Return comments harsh. I don't remember having said that much about them. (now I must go reread my own posts) My main point (re: solar returns) only was that the precession factor has been necessary for me to see any correspondence. As always, everyone is free to do whatever they would like. I can only comment on what works for me.

If I offended you or you were somehow put off by my post, I sincerely apologize. That was not my intent.

I forcefully "represent" my opinion when I think it is backed up conclusively by evidence. I would represent your points JUST as forcefully under the same circumstances.

Have fun!

James

Aren't computers clever! On 11th June Isaac posts an accurate birthtime for MJ. 90 minutes later I ask if the London concerts will be cancelled. Now we have an answer and it is not even July yet