Hi all!

A friend I train with at my martial arts club asked me if she would get together with a guy she is interested in. It's been ages since I did a horary, and I'm a little rusty, so I would be interested in your feedback.

20th May 2009. 22:26 BST. 51N33 0E43. Regiomontanus house system.

She is represented by Jupiter (rather apt as she is a Sag). He is represented by Mercury (he is a few years younger than her). They are applying to a square. I read this as a relationship is feasible but there is an obstacle. He might already be attached. Pluto in the first house also suggests the querent is vulnerable. I also think it describes how she is feeling, as she really likes this guy. I gave the anser as a possibility for a relationship, but watch out as he may already be in a relationship and she could get hurt. Their significators square will become exact week beginning 20th July (if I've got my timings right!), so I guess she will know for sure by then.

After a bit of digging, she came back a few days later. Yes, he was in a relationship so a bit of a non-starter. But she felt sure there might be an attraction there as she had caught him looking at her a few times. So the next question was Is he attracted to me?

24th May 2009. 20:11 BST. 51N33 0E43. Regiomontanus house system.

Ok, she is now represented by Mars (she does a martial art!!) and he is Venus. He is in her sign and house rulership. And applying to a conjuncion with her. Yup, he fancies her big time. Both are in the 5th house, so maybe they are both considering a relationship? She is the strongest planet in the chart, so she is holding all the cards, but he is very weak. Again, I think this means he cannot act on his impulses. But look at their co-significators the Sun & Moon, both in the 7th house and separating from a conjunction. I don't know if this is adding more info about their attraction, or whether this could represent his existing relationship?

I'd be interested in what everyone else thinks of the above charts. I'll try and keep you all posted on what happens.

Pocket Dragon,

The first chart worries me as the Significator of the male, Mercury has the Fixed Star Algol conj. Algol is considered malefic and indicates the 'person looses their head one way or another'. This could mean he falls for her but she's not impressed by him once she gets to know more about him.

Mercury is conj the Sun and therefore combust - the group of Fixed Stars, The Pleiades, the seven weepimg sisters and daughters of Atlas is on the Sun and only tears can come from any relationship with him.

I usually dont look at the Outers but with Pluto prominent in First there is a suggestion a relationship with him would be tri-angulated.

I hope others will comment.

JK

Hi, Pocket Dragon!

After reading your post I couldn't help but thinking that there was something uncommon regarding the order of the questions. When we meet someone we like, we usually start wondering whether he/she likes us first and then start hoping that we'd eventually end up being in a relationship with that person. While, in this case, it's the other way around!
If the chart is read well (and asked for a proper, honest reason)- the answer to questions such as your (your friend's) second one, should be readable from a relationship chart cast for the first question. The dignities, mutual reception, application...lots of things to examine. Asking an additional question of such kind after a very clear relationship question does sound a bit like- trying to pull out a positive answer from a chart by force. Of course, bare in mind, I'm still a Horary learner, you'll find many experienced Horary astrologers here and, if they say something different- believe them! I have learned a lot form them so far!

So, of course, I decided to draw a chart for the time of the first question i.e. to stick to what seemed like a natural order in this a bit contradictory set of questions. and, that said- the first thing I spotted was the shape of the main significators (their motion in specific). The Querent is represented by the Jupiter who will soon start moving backwards while the ruler of the 7th cusp (the other party, the man/boy) is Mercury retrograde. In his ,"Aphorisms and Considerations for Better Judging any Horary Question" (CA ,pages 298 ff.) Lilly says: Retrograde Planet, or one in his first station, Significator in Question, denotes ill in the Question, discord and much contradiction .

Still, I continued and this is what the situation looks like to me:
In order to see whether the parties would get together, we should see the application of the main significators to each other. They're already in a partile aspect with 10min orb which, due to the Mercury's retrograde motion means that they're actually applying to each other. Only it's a stressful aspect (square) and out of not so good houses (Mercury is on the 6th cusp while the Lord of the Asc is succedant and intercepted inside the 2nd). None of the main significators is essentially dignified and with the L being cadent, it could be a sign of the main "characters" not having the strength to perform in a desired manner (to do anything).Furthermore, the ruler of the 7th is combust . Lilly says:

Beware in all Judgments, when the Significator of the question is either Comust, or in Opposition to the Sun, he will then signifie nothing of the matter, no good, nor is be able to bring anything to perfection.

Retrograde Pluto inside the 1st could be suggesting dramatic events, Querent's vulnerability and sudden events that the Queren't will have little control over. Given that the significators are not essentially dignified and that the 7th ruler is combust , this could be supporting the overall impression that the teo people lack the potential to act in order to bring "the thing to passe".

The reception is a bit tricky. While the L1 is received by the Quesited's ruler, there is no reception on the other side. But still, there's the Moon, the co-significator of the Querent, and the Venus (female)/Sun (male) aspects that we should examine. The Sun, just like L7 is, is in the rulership of Venus, and, along with the applying aspects the main significators are forming, it could be indicating the Quesited's interest in the Querent as a woman but the Sun is about to switch signs. Also, the Venus is received by both L7 and the Sun, also exalting the male planet, only she's detrimental in Aries.
Finally, the Moon will soon conjunct Venus, the ruler of the 5th and a benefic in general (the planet of love) which could be another indication of some romantic activities only, again, both planets are cadent and peregrine and Venus is in her detriment.

As for the love triangle- L7 conjunct Sun could be an indication of the Quesited not being alone at the moment the question was asked but, like I said, L7 is also combust (blinded) and moving towards the Queren'ts ruler in retrograde motion.

So, the bottom line is IMHO- not a brilliant situation. Pluto inside the 1st, the main rulers cadent/succedant applying to each other by square, slow and retrograde. Combustion of the L7, Moon applying to venus only both are badly placed and weak....I'd say NO.

As for the timing, the acctual time when the planets form a partile aspect does not indicate the date and time of a certain activity promised in chart- we could use 3 degrees left for the Moon to go before forming partile conjunction with Venus, which could be a bit more than 3 units of time (cadent/moveable= maybe weeks), also, the 1st/7th axes is in mutable signs. There's also the immediate application of the main significators- less than one unit of time (cadent/succedant, mutable/cardinal...maybe it could be 1 month which would more or less equal the timing promised by the first aspect.) But take this with caution as I'm still trying to grasp timing in Horary charts!


Just out of curiosity, I opened the second chart -

In all Questions, know there's not so great an affliction to the Moon, as when she is in Conjunction with the SUN; the ill aspects fo the infortunes doth much afflict her, but none so powerful as her Combustion. (Lilly's "Aphorisms and Considerations for Better Judging any Horary Question")

Thanks Aglaya! With the second chart, the moon is only the co-significator. Are you saying that because of it's combustion there is little point in reading the chart any further? And would you agree with my overall interpretation of both charts that he is interested in her but is not in a position to act?

Pocket Dragon wrote:Thanks Aglaya! With the second chart, the moon is only the co-significator. Are you saying that because of it's combustion there is little point in reading the chart any further? And would you agree with my overall interpretation of both charts that he is interested in her but is not in a position to act?

First of all- forgive my dyslectic mistakes in the previous post!


As for the Lilly's aphorism, it does say In all Questions, know there's not so great an affliction to the Moon, as when she is in Conjunction with the SUN.

The Moon is "only" the co-significator but it is always the significator of the question. Her motion can often tell the sequence of events (further development of the matter inquired about) while Her last (Ptolemaic) aspect before leaving the sign She is currently in should be descriptive of the final outcome of the matter (having the main significators applying to each other undisturbed from good houses, in mutual reception and by a favourable aspect would obviously be a "YES" but the rest of the Moon's journey through the sign is telling how the matter will develop over time!)

Lilly says that a New Moon in a horary chart is basically the most unfortunate placement of the Moon and a strong indicator of the negative outcome; some Astrologers would simply say that such placement seldom promises a positive outcome!
You might want to peek into this thread:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4083

Still, that New Moon belongs to the second chart. i still think that it's the first chart that you should stick to. I would, of course, agree with you that there are enough signs of a mutual attraction even in the first chart; the applying aspects between the main significators and the Moon/Venus applying conjunction are probably announcing some sort of development of the matter or simply that there is a certain potential for some (romantic) activities (or a contact of some kind) to take place but like I said in my first answer- the shape of the ruler, and Mercury in particular, do not look promising. There is no New Moon in the first chart but still- the L7 is combust and retrograde. Peregrine significators, cadent houses, Pluto inside the 1st...
Considering the shape of the main significators and given that the L7 is actually separating from the Sun but that he's also "blinded" and walking "unnaturally" (backwards) my guess would probably be that something just might happen (especially since the Moon is applying to Venus) here only that the things will most likely be out of their control. They lack the power to act in the desired way and, again, Pluto inside the first could be saying the very same thing as well as that the Queren might get hurt. After forming a partile aspect with the Venus, the Moon will hit then conjunct Mars, strong in his own sign. The good thing is that the last aspect the Moon will complete before leaving the sign is a sextile with Jupiter, the ruler of the Querent and of the 3rd cusp. Though i still there's something smelly about this (potential) relationship, at least the Moon's last aspect promises healthy feelings in the end. be it with this boy or in another relationship (The Moon will meet Mars after Venus). Of course, other may disagree!

And as for the last part of your question- well, their main significators don't look powerfull but they're applying to each other (though they're in a poor shape) and the Moon is applying to the Venus- in a way they could be brought together only I'm not sure if the situation will have control over them rather than the other way around. I may, of course, be wrong!


What I forgot to mention in my first response that- the Jupiter/Neptune conjunction could be a strong indicator that the Querent is not seeing things clearly. Her ruler conjunct Neptune and his ruler conjunct Sun (blinded)...yes, they just might be smitten . Only it does seem like a strong physical attraction rather than anything else. They obviously do fancy each other; but they're not in love, are they!? They' re in like, more likely! )))


And do keep us posted!

OK, a little more info. Turns out the guy in question is actually married! What planet would represent the wife in this chart? Would it be the sun who mercury is conjunct, or would she be represented by the moon?

The querent has managed to get the quesited's date of birth (no time though) and looking at the synastry I can see that on paper, there is a definite attraction. Her venus sextile his mars, his venus trine her mars, her venus conjunct his uranus, her mars square his uranus, his venus square her pluto and his mars conjunct her pluto. Phew! They also have a nice tight sun/moon conjunction and his venus sits in her 7th house right on her descendant and his sun also in her 7th.

Hi PD

I only looked at the 1st chart because in my opinion, asking another horary one week later, about the same situation (when it hasn't changed), is unecessary.

In the first chart, the two main significators are applying to a square aspect. This is a square aspect between two peregrine and cadent significators, with no reception between them. This type of square either denies perfection, or creates a situation that ?would have been best left undone?.

Squares signify problems, you need strong effective significators to see that the problem can be overcome, otherwise the story is that the problem overcomes those involved in it.

I think you would be much better telling this woman that the chart is clearly not showing good signs for a relationship, so she should just accept that he is a married man, and so not the man for her.

Regards
Deb

Thanks Deb. That's pretty much how I left it originally. That there is possibly an attraction there, but the man in question is unable or unwilling to do anything about it. Of course at that time, neither of us knew he was married, although I had a bad feeling about this chart at the time as it seemed to be warning the querent. It looked like he was already attached anyway and the chart was saying that the querent would get her fingers burnt if she tried to progress this.

I agree, so I would end the judgement at that. There doesn't seem to be any advantage gained from drawing more charts or trying to identify the wife in this one. There's a danger that you could feed a romantic dream/delusion by looking for more details about a man that the querent is attracted to, where the chart is showing such difficulties, and where we now know he is married anyway. So I think you would be helping her in the long run by keeping it clear and simple, with the message that there's just no feasible relationship here.

Best wishes
Deb