Hello Eddy,
According to Vendel Polich in his book "The Topocentric System", because of its special construction, Topocenric need a special solution to the Polar region. In his book he devoted a whole chapter to this problem. His book is very technical, full of formulae. I assume that this is what you need and I assume that you like it. The book is long out of print. I looked at www.findabook.com and there 2 copies are now available, one from a dealer from Nederland but he demands EUR 50, the other seller from France demands $29.
To my regret currently I don't have a scanner; otherwise I would have sent you the relevant pages.
Do you have Solar Fire? For each chart it gives also the Polar Asc.
I never devoted time to this subject because I never have any chart for someone born in north of 67N. I prefer practical example and not theories.

I find the symbolism striking...

I am afraid that this isn?t so striking for everyone as the technique you are using isn?t particularly wellknown..
I suggest, as I have before, to use generally accepted techniques such as the progressed MC by SA:

In the chart suggested by me the progr MC is conjunct natal Moon around sept 1 1994 and the quinqunce to natal Venus will be exact around March 1 1995. Finally progr MC will form the exact square to natal Saturn around Feb 1 1997.

The configuration square, trine, quincunce is considerd to be a learning triangle by the Huber School and it obviously means that you are going through a tuff period of learning considering the planets involved when the configuration is activated by transit or progressions.

Saturn is in the natal 7th house, so among many things this is a learning period concerning love relationships. It may also involve eating and addiction problems (Moon) and hard work and resposibility(Saturn).

During the period late 1993 until 1996 MJ had addiction problems, lost weight, married twice and divorced once.
From Sept-96 until oct-97 MJ engaged in the History World Tour performing 82 concerts in 58 countries (talk about hard work!) when progr MC squared Saturn. He also got his first son (responsibility).
There is of course much more to say about this?

But the whole of this sequence would have ocurred some 4 years earlier with Starkman?s TOB!

CentralScrutinizer wrote: The darts approach....let's throw stuff up on the wall and pray to God something sticks is not nearly so effective as pointed, relevant comments founded in logic and experience.

Honestly, this is what I think about these Topocentric PDs.

CentralScrutinizer wrote: In short, at velocities close to the speed of light, Newtonian equations break down. Arguing about it is totally pointless.

Yes, but you weren't saying that they were "breaking down", you said they were incorrect, which is, itself, incorrect.

Isaac Starkman wrote:...
According to Vendel Polich in his book "The Topocentric System", because of its special construction, Topocenric need a special solution to the Polar region. In his book he devoted a whole chapter to this problem. His book is very technical, full of formulae.

...

I never devoted time to this subject because I never have any chart for someone born in north of 67N. I prefer practical example and not theories.

The solution he proposed was a pretty bit of sleight of hand: at latitudes > abs (+/-60 degrees), he substitutes the colatitude for the latitude in all of the formulae. I forget what his reasoning was (I do have the book somewhere on my shelves), but it was not convincing on theoretical grounds, though it did make the formulae work without exploding.

As you say, better practical examples.

- Ed

I'm just throwing this out there, but has anyone considered (or has found a chart) with Leo rising, or an ASC with that Venus/Uranus conjunction nearby? That would put his Mercury/Sun/Pluto in the 1st house, or Mercury in the 1st and Sun/Pluto on the cusp of the 2nd, roughly. All of this seems logical if we consider both his sartorial....peculiarities (he had a certain flair for dress and apparently had a vast wardrobe) and his obsession with changing his appearance. He was very good-looking before he started trying to change everything; this would also suggest a Venus close to the ASC.

Mercury in the 1st house would also account for the Mercurial body type otherwise suggested by the Gemini ASC; the Sun/Pluto in the 1st would suggest the self-obsession and personal 'transformation' which went quite wrong, as well as an absolute drive and determination to be in control of his Self. We already know he had father issues.

All in all, looking back on his life, I feel mostly very sorry for him, accusations of inappropriate conduct notwithstanding. I hope he's found some peace now.

GH

Whilst I remain unconvinced still of his birthtime... and I am afraid I have a little more time for the Libra Asc than anyone else on here, the fact of the matter, is almost everyone here has forgot who this man is/was, which surely should go some way in assisting in rectification.

If you are able to provide a compelling astrological explanation for Libra rising, the Sun in the 11th and Moon in the 5th I?m all ears.

I think you are the only person (that I remember) that puts forth a Libra Ascendant. Though I don't think that that is correct, I can see the reasoning...the man surely WAS obsessed about his appearance among other things.

Since when did Libra have anything to do with obsession? Isn?t it an Air sign?

At least give the Gemini rising chart a LOOK. Everything from his Neverland to his home full of weirdness such as hyperbaric chamber, Etc.! can be understood through his Uranus at the IC. All the sexual secrets and questions and ultimately the thing most damaging to his image can be understood through the 12th House Mars. His Father's effect on Michael's needs, mentality and self-worth can be seen through the Saturn-Moon square (Moon r. 2 & 3, self-worth and mindset). His workaholic approach can be seen through the 6th House stellium containing Node, Jupiter, Neptune, and the Vertex. His obsessive thrust of his sexuality before the public, including but of course not limited to, the fact that he regularly "checked his package" explained through the compulsive Pluto-Moon quindecile.

This is very unusual astrology for me. Can you outline where your ideas come from?


I?ll try and fill out why I think the Scorpio rising chart may be the ?one?.

The Gemini and Scorpio chart switch the house position of the luminaries. So in terms of my modelling this is where we need to start, as these are the 2 times with the most astrological baggage. I find it more probable that this is a 10th house Sun manifesting in the world rather than a 10th house Moon. Jackson went after fame in a way that strikes me as more to do with his goals than his needs. The Piscean Moon in the 4th suggests Jackson is ?rooted? in fantasy, Neptune reinforces this fantasy world in the 12th. The Sun in the 10th suggest he was reared to embrace social conventions and this tallies with his father pushing him into the public sphere, giving him this early status and set of responsibilities, he was a pivotal member of the Jackson 5. Saturn in the 1st also talks about feeling this sense of responsibility early on and a more restricted childhood.

Jackson?s father?s Moon may also be in Pisces. The father is usually represented by the IC, although these can switch dependent on who ?prepared? Jackson for the world, so an argument here also for the Gemini rising chart if the Moon is in fact here. His mum is Cap/Taurus so earth, the MC is Virgo in the Scorpio rising chart. No obvious clues here for me without birth data for the parents.

Chiron in the 3rd talks about his painful relationship with his siblings, Chiron square Mars (co/ruler) in the 7th talks about the ?impossibility? of relationships. Jackson seemed unable to trust anyone let alone develop a loving mutually respectful adult relationship. He obtained his security from ?children? if the publicity is to be believed, he even built his home as a refuge and escape for them and him, (including the disabled and vulnerable ones). How Moon in Pisces in the 4th is this? The Moon in the 4th will have trouble accepting limitations and restrictions because inside he wants to remain a child, here in Pisces so childhood is a refuge or an escape.

The function of Mars is to support the Sun in enabling a person to achieve their goals, it's the ??will? of the sun, what gets things done. In the Gemini chart, overall a very weak chart, it?s hidden away in the 12th, already in detriment it?s now in the 12th not a very assertive placement. Jackson didn?t strike me as being a passive wallflower, has anyone seen his stage shows? He?s strutting about often in a very sexual way, He was millions in debt due to his need to get his own way, buy antiques, overspend on lavish stage shows and generally live a life of excess. Isn?t this more resonant of an angular Mars than the one the Gemini chart symbolises?

The Scorpio chart is stronger not least because the Sun/Pluto dynamic is more familiar to him. He will be more conscious of how to manipulate this dynamic or complex. The Gemini chart doesn't appear to describe someone who achieved so much, even if the 'product' lacked much value. He didn?t really go away or retreat to Neverland, which I would expect with the Sun in the 4th house. The Sun here is fulfilled at ?home? it might have been enough after the 'Thriller' millions to then hide away here. Virgo doesn?t need attention.

As an aside it was claimed that he wanted to look like Diana Ross, an AA rated Scorpio rising.

As well as the physical transformations he released albums called Bad, Invincible, Dangerous and Thriller. His 2nd album was called Ben. About a rat, don?t rats live in the underworld? I don't think the Plutonian resonance of these titles can be so easily dismissed. As this is a traditional forum many here will shiver at the idea of Pluto as ruling or co-ruling Scorpio, plus some won' t even consider the outer planets as significant symbols in a nativity if worthy of inclusion at all. So inevitably they will look elsewhere for an explanation for the skin/face mutations or like Ben Dykes just ignore them as being beyond a traditional analysis or peripheral to the main issues of the life such as marriage, children. wealth, etc.

What appears to have happened here is an assumed time has been accepted and going back to the thread in 2004, which focused on the Child Abuse allegations, it wasn't questioned and the source taken as fact. It then had an AA rating according to Olivia.

Looking at the charts as a whole, the Scorpio rising reflects the biography available to me more than the others to date. But who knows, any chart can be made to fit to some extent.

Isaac?s rectification is meaningless without explanation. Each aspect is polymorphic or multivalent, they need a narrative attached to them to enable us to engage with these streams of data. Primary directions may well be very useful but tend to rely on a near enough time, we now have at least 4 times which allegedly come from him, or his inner circle including a Vedic chart. So each time would need to be rectified and a comparative analysis undertaken. Plus we have other times, including the astrotheme 10am Libra rising chart and the Liz Greene Scorpio rising chart for 12.45pm, neither are even listed at astrodatabank.

If some astrologer wants to sit in their room working it out to their own satisfaction I have no problem with it. But I hate to see anyone's death being turned into a circus, or in this case - potentially more of a circus than his life was.

I realise that may happen anyway, but visions of astrologers and tabloids being part of it does nothing to help our vocation, or to further the concept of basic human decency.

Some people want the discussion to be stopped, not surprisingly. Voicing spurious and ridiculous reasons such as an invasion of privacy. This forum and astrology textbooks are full of discussions into public figures. I doubt Jackson's family are particularly bothered by a few astrological enthusiasts wondering what time he was born.

The implication is if an astrologer can be fooled by one chart then any chart can fool them. This is obvious, common sense and something that needs to be acknowledged if we are going to have a mature and educated discussion. Sceptics say astrologers can?t think very well and run away when asked simple questions, this thread in places has provided some solid ammunition for them.

Hello Lisa,

Re: "Since when did Libra have anything to do with obsession? Isn?t it an Air sign?"

From experience with clients over 20 years and having been married TWICE to Libra risings, they definitely DO seem often to be compulsive as concerns appearance.

Re: "This is very unusual astrology for me. Can you outline where your ideas come from?"

I've read far too many books and applied this for far too long to have any idea where many particular "insights" come/came from. They are stored more in my brain by relevancy/usefulness than by who authored them. Sorry. Since you mentioned that it was unusual astrology, I went and reread what I had said. I don't really see anything other than the quindecile aspect that isn't pretty much straight-up astrology. What specifically is so very unusual? (and thanks that you say that!

Re: Moon in 10th (you're using the wrong Gemini chart)

In the Gemini rising chart (per Starkman), the Moon is firmly in the 11th House and this seems correct. Many friends, mainly women. Check. Large group of acquaintances, few real friends. Check. STRONG humanitarian bent. Check. You'd find it very hard to find an entertainer who has spent so much of his time/money on the underprivileged, especially children!

Re: "Isn?t this more resonant of an angular Mars than the one the Gemini chart symbolises?"

An angular Mars, we would likely KNOW more. As it is, we don't know about his sexuality. Was he straight, gay, bi, and/or child-molester?! We just do not know. For someone so famous, with so much money, an angular Mars, WE WOULD KNOW. Unless of course that Mars is hidden away in the 12th, where it would likely be a mystery. Oh wait, it is a mystery.

Re: "Virgo doesn?t need attention." (wrong Gemini rising chart again...it's Leo on the 4th)

Look at the images from inside his home. Opulent doesn't even TOUCH it! The antiques, the reds and golds...it looks like a place for royalty, not a home.

Re: "As an aside it was claimed that he wanted to look like Diana Ross, an AA rated Scorpio rising."

1) Jupiter conjunct a Scorpio Neptune could easily lead to over-idealization of the Scorpio "look".

2) Scorpio is the rising sign in his Epoch chart.

Re: "I don't think the Plutonian resonance of these titles can be so easily dismissed."

No, they can't be dismissed but are, of course, easily explained by his Sun Pluto conjunction and don't have any need to be "tied" to the Ascendant.

Re: "Isaac?s rectification is meaningless without explanation."

You might desire an explanation, but one seems hardly required. Look at the symbolism of his death. At that time, there were MANY very specific aspects and all with a VERY SMALL orb. (Ensuring that the aspects aren't merely coincidence.)

Here, I quote the main aspects at death again:

8th Conjunct MC (d) 0? 1'
12th Conjunct MC (c) 0? 1'
Neptune Semisquare MC (d) 0? 1'
Saturn Sesquisquare 8th (d) 0? 1'
Pluto Semisquare Saturn (d) 0? 1'

Notice how the symbolism uses the inherent meanings of the planets/cusps. There are no complicated references through house rulerships or any other "reaches" that, though possibly valid, HEIGHTEN the likelihood of coincidence creeping in. We have basically "malefic" planets making mostly stressful aspects with personal points or with the "troublesome" 8th and 12th cusps. Does something need to be added to this in order to understand it?

Re: "Primary directions may well be very useful but tend to rely on a near enough time, we now have at least 4 times which allegedly come from him..."

Using THIRTY events and Topocentric Primary Directions his birthtime has been derived. Look at the symbolism using Topocentric Primary Directions. If you'd like, check using OTHER SYSTEMS. If the system is valid, then it will apply.

Let's examine just how this worked. Thirty events were entered. The full range of birthtimes possible was split into tiny slices (in the case of 24 hours, I believe that 10,800 such slices are normally used). EACH of those slices is compared with EACH of those events in terms of EACH aspect within orb and to HOW APPROPRIATE the symbolism of aspects to events IS and then is given a score. The birthtimes with the higher scores (especially in terms of angular aspects) are the ones that are more likely to be the more correct ones. Using other methods (PSSR's and secondaries being two main ones) and examining the aspects at each event leads (usually) to a conclusive time. In this case, that time was/is 11:29:06 PM.

In short, it is saying, when you use the incredibly tight-orbed and symbol appropriate Topocentric Primary Directions system, this given birthtime, is the one that makes the best fit. (again other systems CORROBORATING)

If I sat in my chair and REASONED that his chart must have this Ascendant or that, it is ALL SUBJECTIVE. Using Topocentric Primary Directions to zero in on a birthtime is the OPPOSITE to that process.

I can't think of, nor have I seen in 20 years of QUESTING in Astrology, any other system with such specificity or reliability. (By the way, my "spreading the word" about Topocentric Primary Directions is done in the spirit of sharing important info. I don't make any money from this (I don't have a Topo book coming out) and I don't make money off the associated software. (Alexander Marr's FREE Astro program OR the very fine, Polaris, by Isaac Starkman))

Have fun!

James

Isaac Starkman wrote:Hello Eddy,
According to Vendel Polich in his book "The Topocentric System", because of its special construction, Topocenric need a special solution to the Polar region. In his book he devoted a whole chapter to this problem. His book is very technical, full of formulae. I assume that this is what you need and I assume that you like it. The book is long out of print. I looked at www.findabook.com and there 2 copies are now available, one from a dealer from Nederland but he demands EUR 50, the other seller from France demands $29.
To my regret currently I don't have a scanner; otherwise I would have sent you the relevant pages.
Do you have Solar Fire? For each chart it gives also the Polar Asc.
I never devoted time to this subject because I never have any chart for someone born in north of 67N. I prefer practical example and not theories.

Hello Isaac,

In the article of Michael Wackford I mentioned a few posts ago I read that Polich used the co-latitude in high latitude cases, which Ed also pointed out.

I don't have any computer program. At home I just have an ephemeris, a pocket calculator and some maths and astronomy books.

Hi CS

Ok, yes I assumed wrongly that you were using the 11.53 not 11.29 time.

From experience with clients over 20 years and having been married TWICE to Libra risings, they definitely DO seem often to be compulsive as concerns appearance.

But would you acknowledge this goes against the theory of Libra as balanced, rational and not disposed to extreme behaviour. I would expect Libra rising to be quite focused and motivated to spend time on the appearance, but not to go without sleep for 3 days whilst trying to get the eyeliner right.

What specifically is so very unusual? (and thanks that you say that!

No complement intended.

I was referring to this:

Everything from his Neverland to his home full of weirdness such as hyperbaric chamber, Etc.! can be understood through his Uranus at the IC. All the sexual secrets and questions and ultimately the thing most damaging to his image can be understood through the 12th House Mars. His Father's effect on Michael's needs, mentality and self-worth can be seen through the Saturn-Moon square (Moon r. 2 & 3, self-worth and mindset). His workaholic approach can be seen through the 6th House stellium containing Node, Jupiter, Neptune, and the Vertex. His obsessive thrust of his sexuality before the public, including but of course not limited to, the fact that he regularly "checked his package" explained through the compulsive Pluto-Moon quindecile.

I find this to be a mixture of simplicity, confirmation bias and poor astrology.
Why would a 12th house Mars have anything to do with ?secrets?? isn't this talking about expressions of anger, assertion and self -defence here?
Moon -Saturn, isn't this about the mother more than the father, why are you linking the father to Saturn? ''Father time'' perhaps.
6th house stellium? he has Jupiter and Neptune there, can a node and the Vertex be part of a stellium?, what is your take on the Vertex, intention?
Pluto-Moon quindecile - minor, and this ''tendency' of his might be more related to his ascendent or Sun/Pluto conjunction over the MC?

In the Gemini rising chart (per Starkman), the Moon is firmly in the 11th House and this seems correct. Many friends, mainly women. Check. Large group of acquaintances, few real friends. Check. STRONG humanitarian bent. Check. You'd find it very hard to find an entertainer who has spent so much of his time/money on the underprivileged, especially children!

You have this tendency to talk in absolutes and certainties. This gives me the impression 'this person may be on shaky ground'.

Was he humanitarian or compassionate? Wasn't he just your average selfish pop star who flew around in private jets with a big entourage entertaining the masses with banal tunes? I don?t recall him getting to involved in worthy causes.
Many friends? he complained of this terrible loneliness didn't he?

An angular Mars, we would likely KNOW more. As it is, we don't know about his sexuality. Was he straight, gay, bi, and/or child-molester?! We just do not know. For someone so famous, with so much money, an angular Mars, WE WOULD KNOW. Unless of course that Mars is hidden away in the 12th, where it would likely be a mystery. Oh wait, it is a mystery

Is it a mystery? what does seem clearer is his difficulty in forming mutually loving adult relationships, this my interest in Mars being in the 7th.

This is partly why I asked you where you had sourced these ideas, i.e. Mars in the 12th = sexual secrets is this from the 1st, 8th, 15th, 20th century? For me it is a misleading cookbook idea regardless.

Isn't the 12th about merging, oblivion, escape, self-undoing, how we protect ourselves from the world (similar to being in the womb), thus its link to institutions, prisons, monasteries, etc.

This is why I'm not buying the Gemini chart (s), Jackson was to 'out there'.

Look at the images from inside his home. Opulent doesn't even TOUCH it! The antiques, the reds and golds...it looks like a place for royalty, not a homeLook at the images from inside his home. Opulent doesn't even TOUCH it! The antiques, the reds and golds...it looks like a place for royalty, not a home

Yes like a lot of homes of the fabulously wealthy. All Leo on the 4th?

1) Jupiter conjunct a Scorpio Neptune could easily lead to over-idealization of the Scorpio "look".

2) Scorpio is the rising sign in his Epoch chart.

I'll ignore the Epoch as it's an idea I have no view on.

Two slower planets talking about his 'look', on what basis? Bit grasping at straws isn't it?

No, they can't be dismissed but are, of course, easily explained by his Sun Pluto conjunction and don't have any need to be "tied" to the Ascendant.

You're doing it again with this 'easily'. Nothing easy in astrology. What was his public image (the MC), a freak who transformed his face, how would he have obtained this reputation with a Sun/Pluto conjunction hidden in the 4th?

You might desire an explanation, but one seems hardly required. Look at the symbolism of his death. At that time, there were MANY very specific aspects and all with a VERY SMALL orb. (Ensuring that the aspects aren't merely coincidence.)

Have you looked at the Pd's for the 12.45pm chart?

Just casting my eye over the secondary progressions and transit charts the 12.45 seems more interesting, Saturn in the 8th and Pluto on the ascendent (reminds me of 9/11).


If you discovered tomorrow that he was born at midday, what would be the implications for your astrological interests, call it a day? Because you are clearly 'certain? about this time and how the Pd analysis confirms it.

You, and Issac, may of course be proved ''right''. Father time may tell us in due course.

Lisa

Chiron square Mars, regardless of sign, indicates some kinky stuff sexually. Since Jackson had Mars in Taurus (his return yesterday) this would make the aspect all the more prominent. He also had a Chiron return recently - 50-ish year cycle. The fact that it was public is another consideration in rectification of this chart.

Hello Lisa,

RE: Ok, yes I assumed wrongly that you were using the 11.53 not 11.29 time.

No problem, people make mistakes.

Re: But would you acknowledge this goes against the theory of Libra as balanced, rational and not disposed to extreme behaviour.

Not disposed to extreme behavior NORMALLY, unless we're talking about appearance, then anything goes.

RE: but not to go without sleep for 3 days whilst trying to get the eyeliner right

Both Libra risings that I lived with for over 10 years EACH, spent inordinate time and energy on appearance in a way that would seem compulsive to everyone short of Rainman.

Re: No compliment intended.

No problem, people make mistakes.

Re: I find this to be a mixture of simplicity, confirmation....

You can find it to be bacon, eggs, pancakes and rancid syrup. How you find it is irrelevant. Had I agreed with you, it would have been singularly brilliant, hard to fully withhold its glory and magnificence.

Re: Why would a 12th house Mars have anything to do with ?secrets??

Many 12th House placements are hidden from view. Often, even hidden from the person themselves... Angular placements (as where you want to stick MJ's Mars) are not so easy to hide.

Re: Why are you linking the Father to Saturn?

It works. Look at the Saturn retrograde phenomena. It addresses the Father 90% of the time, if not more.

Re: Vertex

Otherworldly experiences and fated relationships. It works very well with that definition. The very insightful Alice McDermott (Australian astrologer) was the one who first got me to seriously look at the Vertex. Her presentation blew me away and has explained many things in both my chart and in others. Check it out.

Re: Pluto-Moon quindecile

In the life of those who have them, quindeciles are virtually NEVER minor.

Re: You have this tendency to talk in absolutes and certainties.

Are you absolutely certain I have this tendency.

Re: I don't recall him getting involved in worthy causes.

??????!!!!!! Have you read anything about him?

Here is an incomplete list of charities that he has supported:

# AIDS Project L.A.
# American Cancer Society
# Angel Food
# Big Brothers of Greater Los Angeles
# BMI Foundation, Inc.
# Brotherhood Crusade
# Brothman Burn Center
# Camp Ronald McDonald
# Childhelp U.S.A.
# Children's Institute International
# Cities and Schools Scholarship Fund
# Community Youth Sports & Arts Foundation
# Congressional Black Caucus (CBC)
# Dakar Foundation
# Dreamstreet Kids
# Dreams Come True Charity
# Elizabeth Taylor Aids Foundation
# Juvenile Diabetes Foundation
# Love Match
# Make-A-Wish Foundation
# Minority Aids Project
# Motown Museum
# NAACP
# National Rainbow Coalition
# Rotary Club of Australia
# Society of Singers
# Starlight Foundation
# The Carter Center's Atlanta Project
# The Sickle Cell Research Foundation
# Transafrica
# United Negro College Fund (UNCF)
# United Negro College Fund Ladder's of Hope
# Volunteers of America
# Watts Summer Festival
# Wish Granting
# YMCA - 28th Street/Crenshaw

Again, have you read anything about him?

Re: Is it a mystery?

Undeniably.

Re: For me it is a misleading cookbook idea regardless.

Misleading in that it was absolutely True?

Re: I'll ignore the Epoch as it's an idea I have no view on.

If you haven't studied it, then you indirectly do have a view on it. ie. that it's not worth studying. As Isaac Starkman (and Alexander Marr) have shown, the Epoch chart OFTEN shows destiny more clearly than the Natal. (Don't worry, I don't expect you to buy any part of that. True nonetheless.)

Re: What was his public image (the MC), a freak who transformed his face, how would he have obtained this reputation with a Sun/Pluto conjunction hidden in the 4th?

In the chart I referred to, he has Aquarius on the MC (there's the freak element) with Uranus angular and conjunct Venus, there's the root for his peculiar sense of aesthetics and his "transformations" of appearance, freaky as they are/were. There is also the incredible personal magnetism and his unusual tastes.

As I said before, it's ALL explained in this chart.

Re: Just casting my eye over the secondary progressions and transit charts the 12.45 seems more interesting....

Take a deeper look, I assure you the 12:45 time will seem much less interesting.

Thank you for your comments. As I said before, I don't wish to argue with you. If there is a fault in the chart as presented, show how it doesn't fit. So far, you have not, you have only helped confirm it.

James

Chiron in the 3rd talks about his painful relationship with his siblings,

Painful? I don't think so. His relationship with his siblings, especially his sisters, was apparently very close and supportive, despite the fact that he outshone all of them in terms of fame and fortune. The one he had a problem with (and understandably so) was Daddy.

Re: I don't recall him getting involved in worthy causes.

"We are the world/We are the children/We are the ones who make a brighter day/So let's start giving." ..?? He co-wrote this with Lionel Richie? USA for Africa, famine relief? Revenues over 63 MILLION dollars for the charity?

Not involved in worthy causes? ...Perhaps you're not old enough to remember this phenomenon, which is forgiveable, but let's not say he wasn't involved in worthy causes!

GH