If someone is interested in the article from Ken Gillman:

http://web.archive.org/web/200708071732 ... Hitler.pdf

Wolfgang

I have read and tested this article (and the software) a long time ago. In my opinion this technique doesn?t have any value besides hindsight.

Even in the own article, the author uses directions that he himself sees no logic in symbolism, "because they fit".

yuzuru wrote:I have read and tested this article (and the software) ".

I think you mean the article which I have posted.
Which software did you test?

I know only one, and this is from Win van Dam, He had a LVSP-module in one of his older programs.
The other one was special programed for me.
I beg to differ. In my opinion it works.

I think, when you have a "correct" Horoscope, it works well.
My experiences are showing me, that only a "correct" Horoscope can be used for exact (special the timing) forecast! And I did it!

Which system is useable for a project like this, that is the reason. I studied a lot of "systems" and tried to mastery them. It is as like as you speak different languages. Important is not to make a mixer of all this "systems", as like as in languages. But you will observe in languages often, that some words means the same, or it have just a different meaning. - So I can see now, how the same events are be shown (indicated) in different systems.
This is very interesting!

Wolfgang

Which software did you test?

Sorry, it has been many years. But I remember that somebody created a software based on this system.

Well, if in your experience it works, and in mine it doesn?t, I don?t know in what grounds we can discuss it :-)

But, let?s assume you are right and I am wrong, there is two great problems in my opinion, even if it works.

1 - as Steven commented, the author "fits" aspects that don?t really have any real symbolism of the event just because they happened at "the right time".

See for instance page 20: "there has no attempt at identifying and retaining only "appropriate aspects". The converse direction As opp venus for "invades Poland" would have probably been eliminated had we retained only aspects we believe were "appropriate". Yet, that particular As opp Venus aspect exactly identifies the lenght of Hitler?s life."

Here we have exactly all the problems that Steven has commented about, with the author taking great pride of not knowing why the direction showed the invasion of poland, based only on the timing of the direction. This paragraph, in reality, was the reason why I eventually dismissed this work as hindsight astrology. It doesn?t fit my criteria and expectations of good astrological prediction technique (and of rectification as well).

2 - As the "velocity" was variable, that was a huge problem in my experiences with the program. Usually you would have to wait untill the person died to have a clear estimation of the velocity of the Life Span Revolution. Again this is useful for hindsight astrology, but for prediction seems to be of little use, as we have almost no "out-of sample" events to investigate.

Best regards

While I fully support the pursuit of perfecting rectifications, I think we need to be realistic and practical.

The primary reason we do astrology is to make predictions. The primary reason we rectify is to make even more accurate predictions. In order to make predictions, we need to have recognized indicators for an event. If we rectify a chart for a dead person, we can't predict. It's all hindsight. While a dead person's chart can be instructive, at the end of the day we tweaked a chart to fit already-known events.

Let me repeat what I said above: in order to predict, we need understandable indicators. Otherwise, there is no way you can look at a particular aspect or other indicator and predict an event. For instance, I can simply look at a direction of Saturn for a wedding date, even if that date fits if Saturn has nothing to do with matrimony. Traditional sources say that death can be shown by directions of the killing planet. Let's say death happens on March 1st and the killing planet of a chart is Mars. If I see a direction for March 1st and the directed planet is Venus, why would I say ahead of time the person will die then? No astrologer can be expected to make that kind of prediction. Maybe Bonatti was wrong. However, even if he's wrong, we still need an indicator. It has to make sense first.

The primary reason we do astrology is to make predictions. The primary reason we rectify is to make even more accurate predictions. In order to make predictions, we need to have recognized indicators for an event. If we rectify a chart for a dead person, we can't predict. It's all hindsight. While a dead person's chart can be instructive, at the end of the day we tweaked a chart to fit already-known events.

Amen to that!

We should separate rectification as an important tool for prediction, from rectification as a discussion topic, made by hindsight astrology, that never gives anything but heated flame wars about celebrities that already died!

We should separate rectification as an important tool for prediction, from rectification as a discussion topic, made by hindsight astrology, that never gives anything but heated flame wars about celebrities that already died!

I don't agree here

Why we should be so involved with prediction?
Prediction could be important if we are casting a chart for our clients or friends, but why we should make prediction for people we don't know and don't ask?


On the other hand, charts of famous people are very interesting to me because events tend to be stronger in celebrities life, and in this case we can more easily check if techniques work or not.

Personally, there is nothing more boring to me to cast a chart of the friend's friend mother in law, inventing about their psyche.

And on the other hand Renaissance books are full of charts of dead people, it's obvious because it's the better way to show how astrology works.

Then obviously, there is a moment for everything in life and if need we should cast a chart for a client, or an horary....

margherita

Hello Steven, I'm not sure we are in disagreement, just different words.

steven wrote:
Well, I'm not sure I agree at all with this. Are you going to tell me that events in my life are not as strong as events in a celebrities life? I have personally built 3 orphanages, two in the former Soviet Union and one in Brasil! They have changed the lives of thousands. Just because it doesn't make the "world news" doesn't mean it is not as strong or influential as any celebrity! There are thousands of people, little people, who go through life "changing the world" in their little corner of the world. Just because you don't know about it does not diminish the quality or strength of the event.

I never meant this obviously. And it's very beautiful hear what you did.
It takes a lot of heart try to do the world a better place because it's very easier to stay in silence and take things for granted.
Manzoni in his masterpiece Promessi Sposi explains this very clearly.

I just meant that GENERALLY life of people is not like that, they are quieter and their life is made of quieter events.

Famous people live very fast on the other hand, and it's easier to know about them.

Secondly, since neither you nor I know these celebrities personally and have first hand knowledge of events in their lives, there is no way in heaven or hell we can accurately check anything. We only see what the media tells us, which I have very little faith in its accuracy. I often hear and read quite conflicting accounts of celbrities lives all the time. We only see the surface but not the chain of events except on very rare occasions.

But we need just dates and event, we don't try to read in their psyche. I'm not a psychologist, I'm not interested in their family complex, Oedipus and so on...I'm sure the same for many here.

As far as why we should use prediction it is simply because it is the "proof of the pudding" as we say in English. My clients would stop using my service if all I did was look in retrospect at their lives.

What I tried to tell, maybe I was not clear. We need to do predictions for our clients, and horaries.
But studying chart after events helps us to see if we are using the right tools.

Prediction isn't about the psyche, that is modern astrology. Traditional prediction is people like David Hernandez stepping up and accurately predicting things in his own country and that makes a difference.

Exactly what I believe, there is no Liz Greene for you or David or Deborah or other traditional astrologers.

.

For myself I find it much more exciting working with everyday people, little people the apples at the bottom of the barrel that hold up the nice shiny apples at the top. They are the ones whose lives make astrology come alive!

I don't want that people would believe I despise ordinary people. Myself I'm very ordinary and very quiet. And I never thought that celebrities are better than us.

Never I would change my life with Michael Jackson or Silvio Berlusconi life...I just meant that sometimes it's useful to study their chart as demonstration.

It was Cardano who invented booklets of famous nativities and everybody liked the idea and copied him-

Hope I was clearer,

margherita

Hello,

Maybe someone can explain.

I don't get the difference in whether the person is alive or dead having any fundamental importance relative to rectification and/or the confirmation thereof.

Example:

If Bob is still alive and we take the events of his life up to this point and rectify his chart. Using that rectified chart, we see corresponding aspects with several events later in his life. (whether it is predicted or not is irrelevant, as either the symbols are correct or they aren't)

Now, if Bob were DEAD, and we took the events in his life up to 1990 and rectified his natal chart and used THAT to correctly "predict" many events from the remaining 12 years of his life post 1990, what is the difference?

Alive or dead, predicted or not; if the SAMPLE events lead to a rectification and that rectification then fits appropriate symbology to other events (not used in the rectification) in the life. How is that not the same confirmation?

James

yuzuru Quote:
Well, if in your experience it works, and in mine it doesn?t, I don?t know in what grounds we can discuss it :-)

You are right, we can not discuss about our knowing from experiences. Because you don't know why it works for me, and I don't know why it did not work for you. (':?')
This, or we both, would need another way of communication. It needs the understanding of using the "material" and so on. So the forum would be the wrong medium. ('') - But this was not my intension. - Anyway I think the LVsP from Ross Harvey is not really a module for doing correction, because it works only by person which have arrived the age of 21 ore more. But please reconsider, that the symbols in this kind of "Horoscopes" is different than to other kinds of Horoscopes. You remember to the comparing of languages?
And it also important that you have a correct Horoscope, because you work by this technic "only" with MC and AS. Don' forget one, the hole Lifespan is the movement by 360? from AS and/or MC. You need the correct AS/MC, or it does not "work".
I have had mention this Module, because of controlling for a finished rectification with different Systems, which are based on other rules than my system. I think, that astrology works with a lot of (still unknown) rules, and not only one. And they are connected together in still unknown kinds. Example: Astrology works on/with two basically regularity:
First by an mathematical. You divine the Ecliptic, you find out the correct "place" whit mathematical instruments. Also with mathematical instruments you find the place of Antiscies etc.. But the meaning from an planet or a sensitive point you specify by a kind of an analog system! Venus stand analog for money, women, mother etc. Also when you will declare a situation you use a analog system: Houses and the ruler of a house. But this is not in every Horoscope the same planet. This is always changing! -This is an old system. But is this the only working system? No! There are more astrological languages! They are keyed. Still we have to find the keys. So one System works in that way, as it is using the planet with the meanings as General significator and also the mathematical system by using Antiscies and mathematical proportion from two or more Planets. In other words this is called Half-sum and so on. Placidus was this using in primaries called mundan parallels and rapt parallels. _ So we can use the pure symbolic of the Planets in connection to another planet by mathematical order. Old astrology is using this by aspects, modern astrology is this using by Midpoints and sensitive points. But stop, the Old one have had also sensitive points: The lots! So we can see overlaps or a corresponding!

Now I will come to the conclusion: I think we can not be sure by using a mainly analog system for correction. To much hypothetic points. But with a "modern" use of mathematical symbolic we have more logic explanations, and when this is really working (I don't belief, I am sure, I tested it) than it is an enrichment. That does not condemn the old knowledge and experiences.
I am happy that I can use so many systems. For fast working I use the (for me) most effective one, but also I am looking to the same problem than in other kinds of astrology. But I could not start in this kind of astrology!

Example: do you know a (classical) technic by knowing only place and birthdate and one event, and you be able to find out the birth-time?
Try to get proofed birth-certifications, Then make a blind-study, in meaning of not knowing the real birth-time and find out with one important event the birth-time.
So you can proof a system, when the astrologer also is able to mastery his knowledge and trade.
But when you have the birth time, you can use any system and see if you can find with this the same analogy, or if it is comply with event.

I have usual weekly meetings with other astrologers, which are learned the the (modern) classic astrology, as we use in Vienna. But also every one has his own special system. So one prefer the method of D?bereiner (Rhytmenlehre), an other one is using Witte, ...
(By the way, if you want to see very fast was is going on in any horoscope, the technic of D?bereiner is fascinating!)
So we work together by looking for events or Horoscopes but also by different style of technics. This gives the possibility for insights into astrology!

Wolfgang

CentralScrutinizer wrote:Hello,

Maybe someone can explain.

I don't get the difference in whether the person is alive or dead having any fundamental importance relative to rectification and/or the confirmation thereof.

Ok I'm going to issue a clarification before I begin. I am going to pick on Dr. H's Rectification book a little bit, but I don't want any mistake to be made. I fully support him and will buy his PD book when it comes out. I think he's an excellent astrologer, so please don't take this personally. I'm using an example of his in his rectification book to illustrate what I am talking about. I just happen to disagree with this one idea.

Traditional astrologers say that death can be shown by directing the ASC or hyleg to the killing planet. The killing planet is found through making a table and finding the most dignified planet of a certain group of degrees.

Abraham Lincoln, according to Dr. H's rectified chart is Sag ASC, and the hyleg is the Moon. The killing planet table shows Saturn as the killing planet.

Dr. H shows a rectified direction of Lincoln's death date minus 5 days of Venus conjunct the Moon. While this looks significant and interesting considering Lincoln's killer was an actor and the Moon is the hyleg, how would an astrologer predict this as death? The answer is they couldn't. There is nothing shown in that direction that shows a death. It shows a Venusian event affecting his body, but not necessarily a death. Venus isn't the killing planet and isn't even close. It could also mean Lincoln would contract a venereal disease at that time.

Of course the (early) traditional astrologers could be wrong, and if they are, we need clear indicators to look for. I don't think there is an astrologers amongst us who, if Lincoln walked into our office with that chart, would've looked at it and said "at around April 15th you will die". Now in retrospect it all fits. For prediction, not so much.

edit: I'm actually fascinated by this subject, but I'm approaching this with normal clients in mind. I want to make accurate predictions for clients I personally interact with. This means blind prediction. This is why I want to get this nailed.

Mithra6 wrote: Ok I'm going to issue a clarification before I begin. I am going to pick on Dr. H's Rectification book a little bit ...

This was a book that I bought with high hopes and was throughly dissappointed.

Mithra6 wrote: Abraham Lincoln, according to Dr. H's rectified chart is Sag ASC, and the hyleg is the Moon. The killing planet table shows Saturn as the killing planet.

Dr. H shows a rectified direction of Lincoln's death date minus 5 days of Venus conjunct the Moon. While this looks significant and interesting considering Lincoln's killer was an actor and the Moon is the hyleg, how would an astrologer predict this as death?

Actually, this was a funny part, as an actor would definitely be signified by Saturn. Venus I'd see as more a woman or maybe a religious fanatic? Don't think that John Wilkes Booth was a religious fanatic, though; but it is interesting, as he was a very famous actor of the time, along with his brother, who went by another surname IIRC. It would be like Obama being done in by Tom Cruise.