Hello Kirk

Kirk wrote: I've come to think that the ASC is more the personal 'style', the intelligence behind and directing the physique, something that other people often sense more than consciously see in the chart native. It can also describe a certain 'aura' that surrounds a person. This is exactly why Pisces struck me as the most likely choice. The physique seems to be more strongly described by the ASC ruler, in this case Jupiter in Libra. The body type signified by Jupiter is described by Lilly as ?an upright, straight and tall Stature?. Lilly describes the Libra physique as ? ... a well framed body, straight, tall and more subtle or slender than gross?. With the rising sign signifying more the personal style and the animation of the body, Pisces with it's (modern?) association with dance makes for a pretty darn awesome Moonwalk that even a non-fan can appreciate. A Piscean looseness and and release of the body.

This is not traditional, at least for me.
Temperament derives from the Moon ruler and Ascendant degree ruler according Ptolemy, where ruler means the planet which has most rights in those degrees and considering the aspects these points receive.

And I don't see how the chart can say something and the shape of body another.

I believe that Lilly in the text you quoted thinks to sanguine temperament, hot and moist.

Still Pisces is not just Jupiter domicile, what about the rest of the dignity table?

And Jupiter occidental to the Sun is not so moist...

i agree with Tom I would have the birth certificate.

margherita

I've been wondering, is there an indication in a western chart that points towards a problem with astrology? As in, an issue with gaining higher 'knowledge' of a person's nature? There absolutely is in Hindu astrology; seems as though it fits in MJ's chart.

In Hindu astrology it can manifest as a detriment to the 9th house, or say, Saturn in the 7th house...We know that MJ's father, Joe Jackson, is, even since his son's death, a piece of work; but, other than a problem with the 9th house (the father, the initial 'guru') is there a 'higher knowledge' issue that is evident in MJ's chart? 'HE' knew his birthtime, without question, but is there a 'block' in others knowledge of such delicate information?

It seems to me that classical analysis of ascending signs is a bit superficial. Look at Scorpio rising; is everyone small and hairy and secretive and criminal in nature? Don't project Pluto on everyone you know to be Scorpio in nature...

...classical descriptions are guidelines. I agree with Isaac in that Pisces/12th house anything is confusing at best.

From someone with a stellium of conjunctions in Scorpio in the 12th/1st: things are not as they seem. Water signs will dissolve an issue exponentially...

I believe that astrology rests upon the principle that meaning is revealed by shape and form, so I don?t question the notion that appearance is expressive of character, and has its signature in the chart. Traditionally, the ascendant-ruler and Moon are most important, (plus the ascendant and first house planets); but I don?t think there is a point in the birth chart where you can suppose that something is not relevant. For example, any planet on an angle is going to be very expressive whether it rules the angle or not. Also, traditional authors do explain that meaning has to be judged within the context of racial and parental influences.

It?s interesting that Jackson was buried yesterday with a Full Moon opposing the Sun in Cancer, which was on the trine of his natal Moon ? which then became so prominent in this discussion (just as Mars transited his natal Mars and things got heated in this thread ). I thought about what you had to say Kirk and I can understand why the Pisces appeals so much, but I think we get those qualities anyway from the elevated Full Moon in Pisces. To have the Moon rising too would be too much physically and temperamentally IMO. Jackson was lithe and acrobatic and a great showman, so we have to account for that. I believe he found such fame because he radiated his solar qualities when he was younger ? but yesterday was a day about his death, forcing us to look again at his Moon square Saturn. This was important, obviously, but not the essence of his fame. We can talk about his Moon walk but anyone who remembers seeing him perform it in his prime will understand that the attraction was definitely based upon a solar, and not a lunar quality.

However, this is just a casual opinion and I would naturally prefer the birth chart too

PS: I once did a study of people who blank out their faces. A biography of the serial killer Dennis Neilsen explained how he had a fascination with death and used to paint his face white and stare in the mirror ? he had the Moon in Taurus conjoined to Saturn, on the opposition of Pluto. Much different context of course.

I'm wondering whether any tweaking of MJ's chart would be helped by his apparent diagnosis of vitiligo and lupus, right around the time that 'Thriller' came out. I found an interesting link on YouTube that provided photographic evidence of MJ's changing skin colour over time (including his use of skin-coloured makeup to cover the blotches during performances; eventually he had to change from shades of brown to shades of white). It was also around this time that he started wearing sunglasses almost permanently. Perhaps this was as much a cosmetic cover-up (since one of the first places skin pigment disappears is around the eyes) as a privacy issue?

Both lupus and vitiligo are auto-immune disorders. Surely something like this would show up in a chart, especially since it had such a huge impact on his appearance (multiple surgeries notwithstanding).

If we use the Gemini ASC chart, Jupiter, Neptune and Vertex are in the 6th. How would this play out in terms of his health? His hair was also set on fire, in 1984, was it; right around the same time that the vitiligo was diagnosed.

GH

Gunhilde wrote:If we use the Gemini ASC chart, Jupiter, Neptune and Vertex are in the 6th. How would this play out in terms of his health? His hair was also set on fire, in 1984, was it; right around the same time that the vitiligo was diagnosed.

In the 14 Gemini chart the 6th house is ruled by Mars, which is natally in the 12th, within a few degrees of Algol, which seems fitting to the fire.

I think the burns were a very significant event: 27 January 1984. Transiting Saturn was loosely opposite his natal Mars and there were significant contacts from Mars and the more inferior planets to his natal Sun on that day. The nodal axis fell across the degree of the ascendant-desc axis (14 Gem - Sag), and Uranus was at 12.27 Sag (opposing ascendant) with the Moon applying to the conjunction of Uranus ? not sure how exact that was because I don?t know the time, but all of the 'fire-type' triggers seem to be there.

I was wondering today about Weird Al Yankovic's "Fat" parody...

Could an eighth house Jupiter become a 'possession' of another person? It was Weird Al's biggest hit...

'Bad' to 'Fat'...that's an eighth house first ruler Jupiter into the silly parody that it was. It also made a HUGE payday for the goofy accordion player...

Just a thought...

hello Deb,

my "uranian" notes reflect: 6:30 pm time of hair incident - no recorded source!

here is the "people magazine" source: maghttp://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0 ... 44,00.html


I must say I found the close Uranus-Moon CONJUNCTION as astrologically descriptive as it gets...

Thanks TC - and I agree with you.

Isaac Starkman wrote:After much scrutinizing I came to the conclusion that the birth time given by the Vedic astrologer Chakrapani Ullal is the true one. Refined rectification is 7.32.19 CDT Asc 9Pis49'.
No one thought about Pisces rising, but I think this fit him very much. Neptune, Jupiter (the rulers) and NN in 8th house- he caused himself death by taking too much drugs.
Moon rising- his autobiography called Moonwalk
In my post from 11 June I made an analysis with PSSR system and came to the correct conclusion that his birth time is after 18.30 but I failed to pinpoint the correct time although my program Polaris, in searching from 19.00 to 24.00 do shows 19.32.19 as 3rd ranking and 23.29.12 as 5th ranking, but I "refused" to check Pisces rising.
Conclusion: rectifying chart without any birth time is still very difficult.

It seems that the Vedic astrologer succeeded to bewilder me.
After checking and re-checking I have to return to my original rectification with 10 Gemini rising.
My apology for my bewilderment.

I'm sticking with Pisces rising for a while. There seem to be a lot of regrets around here concerning the lack of a recorded birth time, but I'm having great fun giving MJ Pisces rising and a first house Moon.

Deb wrote:

I believe he found such fame because he radiated his solar qualities when he was younger ? but yesterday was a day about his death, forcing us to look again at his Moon square Saturn. This was important, obviously, but not the essence of his fame. We can talk about his Moon walk but anyone who remembers seeing him perform it in his prime will understand that the attraction was definitely based upon a solar, and not a lunar quality.

Oh, but with Gemini rising there's the Sun buried beneath the horizon at the bottom of the chart. It's a 4th house Sun so it's in the weakest of the angles. Ho-hum. It all doesn't seem particularly solar in any striking sort of way. The full Moon does reflect the Sun's light, but the Moon is in the 11th house ? a nice enough place with plenty of influence, but it just doesn't have enough power for me. Unless we want to be open minded and use Whole Sign houses. . . . Then we have a nice fat prominent 10th house Moon reflecting the Sun's light. Perhaps then I could possibly be convinced of this Gemini rising thing.

Maybe we should consider the passage of time bringing a passage from a solar beginning which then becomes more lunar, leading ultimately to the troubles and seclusion of Saturn. With Pisces rising we get a 1st house Moon at the beginning of life which reflects the solar light. A birth time of 7:35 pm and a bit later gives a Moon-Asc conjunction and a Sun-Desc conjunction. The Moon is actually just above the horizon by altitude so we don't have both lights below the horizon ? eminence is still possible (for those who are uncomfortable with both lights beneath the earth). The Sun has set but is still conjoined the Desc. What does the rising Moon in the opposite direction give us? Why, a movie screen in the sky, of course! The dying Sun gets to perform by way of reflecting in the Moon, the chart native gets to appear and act solar, both lights are prominently conjoined the Asc-Desc axis, and Kirk is left happy with his poetic image. With the mega-fame as a mere child, the even bigger fame as a young man, the noticeable and often publicly discussed physical changes, the suspicions regarding children, the huge public response and impact on the Internet following his death, and the worldwide viewing of his public memorial ? can anyone really complain about talk of movie screens and projections? The guy had ? was ? a powerful lunar influence. It screams 1st house.

But the solar show couldn't stay the same over the life span. The Sun at the Desc has come to the close of day and therefore its light is fading; the Moon is separating from its opposition to the Sun and is waning; and through a square aspect the Moon is translating the setting Sun's light to Saturn (I do hope I've got that technicality correct). And there is Saturn right at the MC. Moon, Sun, Saturn; Asc, Desc, MC. A life that had to be unusual and lived in the public sphere.

But I could be wrong about the time. It doesn't matter, because, believe it or not, this is also good astrology. It's in the doing. If prediction is important to you, accurate astrological forecasting can be made with such astrology if it's anchored in deep understanding of the materials and in confident use of the brush. And besides, such an approach gives us play time.

So no more wishing and waiting for an official birth time to show up.

I must say Pisces rising has started making more and more sense to me lately, as well. I don't have the time to open the chart now (though, I probably already have) but I surely will later today or tomorrow but the reason why I'm more and more inclined to believe that he might have been a Pisces rising (besides some of the facts explained in your post, kirk and mainly concerning his public/private life) is something I've known for a long time and have come across in an article today- his insomnia or, at least sleeping disorder (he did say in a few interviews he only sleeps for a few hours) followed by, as it turns out, pretty much an addiction (drugs/medicines abuse). They've even mentioned Xanax in that article I read today and it triggered the idea of placing his Asc in Pisces once again.

With the Asc in Pisces he would be under a greater influence of the Neptune which often has got a lot to do with sleeping disorders (if the rest of the chart supports that, of course). Like i said, i don't have the chart in front of me at the moment but I believe that Pisces rising would put Neptune inside his 8th and if so, considered that it is actually in Scorpio, i'm even more inclined to believe this could be very close to his real chart. Moving the Asc in Pisces and finding the Moon on the Asc really does ring a lot of bells. Such placement of the Moon ;unstable childhood, potential "arguments" with parents, many relocations...and then, in his later years, the care for children, orphanages and hospitals, being present almost literally in every one's house, love for the people etc. but also inner struggles, self pity ("the pain is my friend") and finally, constant loneliness (be it a real isolation or the impression of being alone) and, paradoxally, allowing their own fear of being left alone to build up high walls between the Natives and the rest of the world or, in better words- allowing your biggest fear to conquer you (the fear of being lone that, eventually isolates them from the rest of the world). Naturally, he is not the only person with Moon in Pisces but, such placement smack on Asc would certainly increase the power of its symbolics in the life of the Native.

And as for the Neptune- drug abuse comes in many different forms and for many different reasons. Unfortunately, on occasions, it is triggered by real medical conditions (which is why I mentioned his Neptune in the first place). Chronic pain, insomnia, anxiety....those are some of the most common triggers. If a person is suffering from insomnia (The Moon, Neptune, even Mars could revel a layer of two) , they start using medicines to help them get some sleep. If the Nativity is prone to stress or anxiety (Mars, Moon...)- the more stressful the life gets, the less sleep they get. Neptune is their "fake sleep" and, depending of its placement, aspects to the Moon and other significant planets, the Nativities can sometimes lose control. And then the dead circle begins. The more pills they take, the more pills they need and, paradoxally, too many pills often cause them to feel as though they never actually do sleep at all etc. It's not cocaine, it ain't smoking weed- but it is a form of addiction. Unfortunately, when such addictions are triggered but realistic problems (insomnia, back pains- he had those too) it can be very hard for others to help as (The Moon in Pisces)-as the Nativity would often say (his case too) that, if he stops taking drugs (pills) and saves his organism from their influence, he/she will then die from the pain or anxiety. Like I said, a dead circle. I've had (and still do have) a few similar cases of "losing control over pain-killers and Xanax" i n my family and, though many of those charts are not yet rectified, the influence of the Mars/Moon/Neptune combination is huge in every single one.
This chart would put the Neptune inside the 8th and in Scorpio...huh
Only, such people are often very creative (or destructive, depending of the rest of the chart)- working a lot to "use the time they'd rather use for sleeping".

Anyways, I guess it is something to think about!

The guy had ? was ? a powerful lunar influence. It screams 1st house.

Exactly! And he was the Moonwalker!

Note that whatever birthtime is taken, Gary, Indiana, had
no daylight saving at Jackson's birth.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_it_still_t ... aving_Time


Indiana has had a chequered history in its daylight saving policy
for various counties, but there was no DST in 1958 for the
whole state.

However, during most its history, the state generally had two time
zones, with most counties following EST and the remainder on CST,
switching to EDT and CDT respectively during the relevant months
if daylight saving was in use by the county in that particular year.


Gary in Lake County was definitely using CST (minus 6 hours GMT)
for the entire year in 1958.

The entire state finally adopted daylight saving from April 2006,
with the two time zones still being used.


http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/daylig ... a/indiana/



A 10 am (Astrotheme), CST chart would give Scorpio rising at 1 degree 20.

I had always thought the most prominent feature of Jackson's
appearance was his intense, penetrating eyes. Plutonic/Martian
eyes, accentuated by Neptune and Jupiter right there.

"Laser beam eyes".

http://www.mweb.co.za/entertainment/hor ... gnsscorpio


" The eyes may shine brilliantly, are very magnetic, dark as a rule, and round. "

http://tribes.tribe.net/risingscorpio/t ... 131d4adfd9


" Scorpio rising tends to give thick eyebrows; penetrating eyes and
sometimes with skin problems. "

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 913AANoFa0