Very interesting post on Mundane Astrology, Tom. Nicholas Campion also co-authored a book ?Mundane Astrology? in which he states the importance of the mid-point of the Ascendant/MC.

Campion states on pages 252-253 of ?Mundane Astrology?: ?Because the interplanetary aspects of any mundane charts are common to every place in the world, the all-important factor becomes the angles and house positions, but particularly the angles. Any planet which is within a few degrees of the angle, especially 1-2 degrees, is likely to play a marked role in the period immediately ahead. Equally, any body configuring the AS/MC mid-point by- 0-, 45, 90, 135, or 180 within an orb of 2 degrees should be carefully noted. This often-neglected point is of the very greatest importance in all charts since it links together both angles and therefore gives a double intensity to the bodies involved.?

When we compute the CanSolar (Cancer) ingress chart in the Sidereal Zodiac for London in 1939: July 17th, 1939, 9:13:34 AM, GMT, London England, 51N30, 0W10?we find very striking symbolism involved with the AS/MC midpoint. The AS/MC midpoint is 6Cancer53. The Moon is 7Cancer11, Pluto is 6Cancer58, both partile conjunct the AS/MC midpoint at 6Cancer53. Mars is 7Cap17-partile 180 the AS/MC midpoint. Saturn is 6Aires43-partile 90 the AS/MC midpoint and partile 90 Mars. This is a T-SQUARE structure of Saturn-Mars-Moon-Pluto?all in partile aspect to the AS/MC midpoint located to London whose government in early Sept declared World War 11 on Germany.

Regards, Steve

That is something that I have noticed in looking at event charts that can be classified as defining moments in the lifetime (maybe a wedding, or a launch of an important business, for example). So recently this has been on my mind. As its a principle that I find myself stressing in the examples I use at workshops, I'd be very interested to get a reference from Morinus so I can have a look at what is said about this from a more traditional perspective. So if you can help on that, it would be great.

Hi Deb,

I?m not surprised to find that event charts would have strong similarities with nativities. The event chart would symbolize the fulfillment of the promise of the nativity just as a solar return would. After all an event chart and an election can be identical.

I have quotes from Gadbury and Morin on solar returns which can be applied to events or mundane astrology. I?ll give the quotes first and then discuss.

From the Doctrine of Nativities Chapter XXXIII

Having gained your Revolutional Figure exactly, the first thing you are to do is to compare it with the Figure of Birth, and observe its concordancy or discordancy therewith. It agrees with the Radix when it happens to be the same that was; or when sextile or trine unto it; the Planets being therein well posited etc, and such a revolution has Signification of good to the Native.

It disagrees with the Nativity when it chances to be in quartile or opposition thereunto and when the Planets are therein ill located when they behold their radical places by square or opposition. The greater the agreement the more excellent and beneficial will the Revolution prove; the more different from the radix, it will prove more detrimental.?

Morin covers this ground in a lot of places in Book 23 and Book 25. At the end of Book 23 is a list of aphorisms.

Chapter XVIII page 129 aphorism No. 2

2. Similarity of signification of a revolution with the geniture brings forth the things signified in the geniture. But dissimilarity suppresses or retards them, or fulfills them in a minimal fashion or corrupts them. And therefore whatever is performed by a revolution must certainly be presignified in the nativity. But whatever is presignified in the nativity for any particular year is not performed by the revolution of that year in the absence of similarity to the thing predicted, which accentuates the potential of the geniture and its directions in the things signified. Therefore Cardan rightly warns that nothing should ever be pronounced about the radical directions without having inspected the revolution of the year indicated by the direction ? but in fact also the one immediately preceding or following; otherwise even the best astrologer will be deceived.

I left the last part in to show that Morin didn?t always dump on Cardan.

All aphorisms should come with a warning posted before or after each one of them that says: "all other things being equal." All other things are rarely if ever equal, so hold judgment until everything relevant is examined. The traditional authors loved to recoil in horror upon seeing the angles in a revolution reversed from that of a nativity. However, if you live reasonably close to your birthplace and you live a normal life expectancy, you will see this happen at least a half dozen times in your life. ON the other hand, you can only die once.

Reversals are not significators of doom (usually). If you have something less than desirable in your chart, the reversal with other stuff might reverse that promise. The same is true of repetition. If a bad thing repeats, it should happen. Look at the angles repeating or reversing as indications of an important year or event ? not as harbingers of bliss or doom. My experience with angle reversals is that they can and often do indicate some kind of upheaval in the life, and it isn?t necessarily life threatening. I had one last year. My SR ASC was tightly opposite my natal ASC ? classic reversal. I didn?t die. What did happen is my ex-wife the aforementioned divorce subject came and is still back in my life and it has caused quite a bit of upheaval.

The main point in any chart subordinate to a base chart the closer it repeats something, the more likely whatever that something indicated will occur. Now every chart has good and bad, so logically a reversal can reverse a least temporarily, a bad event, and a strong repetition could bring about something bad in the chart. So look at these things carefully. We get more out of this if we use the aphorisms are guidelines rather than certainties. Also I noticed that Gadbury is a bit more dogmatic about these things than Morin. Morin usually builds in a fudge factor or some wiggle room, and Gadbury does not.

Tom

Thanks very much Tom

Repetition is the key that unlocks the timing of the prediction. If we see the same thing in the subsequent charts or similar things in those charts that are in the main chart, we know that this is the time period in which the promise of the chart will be fulfilled. In the above example of WWII, the Aries ingress promises war. The Cancer ingresses tells us it will occur between the summer solstice and autumnal equinox. Other charts will narrow it even more and that is the subject of my next post. However if none of the subsequent ingress charts showed us war or a repetition of the Aries ingress, then we could predict "no war" or perhaps minor skirmishes that will not escalate into war. Also if the Aries Ingress shows peace and a subsequent ingress shows war, we would not predict a major conflict only perhaps a minor one.

Ok, the relationship between Aries and subsequent Cancer ingress presaging war is easily understood. But what if the war happens in the first quarter of the year, before we get to the Cancer ingress? How can we discover this potential?
Thanks

Ok, the relationship between Aries and subsequent Cancer ingress presaging war is easily understood. But what if the war happens in the first quarter of the year, before we get to the Cancer ingress? How can we discover this potential?

Thanks

Probably lunations. The next part of this prediction show how to narrow it down within the quarter. I have some work left to do on that, but basically we would look for a lunation that occurs prior to the Cancer Ingress that duplicates the Aries Ingress. At least that's the way it appears to me.

Tom

Right, lunations. that's the way I thought about the possible trigger,too - and that means I was on the right track.

Morin's astrology always intrigued me, but I've never had a chance to discuss its principles(I don't have the books, either but hope some day I will have them). Some material can be found on the net, but that's only enough to make you hungry and want a lot more.

I don't know what it is but there's something I like when I read things from Morin in this forum.

"Particular Constitutions" are nativities in Morin's view, but ironically would include national charts - a technique that did not exist in the 17th century.

The typical 'nation state' only developed in the 19th century after Napoleon. 'Nationalism' also is a 19th century 'invention'. Of course there were countries with borders (the Netherlands were a 'republic' during period before the French Revolution) but usually these were related to a member of the nobility. So this may be the cause of the non-existance.

In 1938, a French astrologer named Jean Hieroz, made a prediction of war based on ingress charts using the teachings of Morin deVillefranche. I wonder if the astrologers, including Carter, that missed the war had ever heard of Hieroz or Morin.

I have a book (a 1970's reprint of a 1930's trilogy) from a Dutch astrologer, Cornelis Gorter, who also describes Morin's techniques of which he calls 'doctrine of determination. 104 aphorisms are discussed. He however does use the modern planets sometimes in these. Perhaps I should study these chapters to get a taste of Morin.

Gorter mentions the Frenchman Selva (and his book "La th?orie des d?terminations astrologiques de Morin"Bodin 1902) as his source and the Austrian Schwickert/Sindbad being familiar with Morin. Perhaps there were several groups more inclined to Morin than to Leo. Several other of my Dutch pre WWII books seem almost entirely based upon Leo and Blavatsky'an doctrine.

All prediction, natal and mundane, rests on the same principles. There is a base chart. That base chart contains the promise or potential of that which we are looking at. In a nativity it is obviously the natal chart. In mundane it can be one of the following: Jupiter - Saturn Conjunction, Mars - Saturn conjunction, Jupiter - Mars conjunction, eclipse charts, charts for comets, and I suppose he would include, if he accepted them, charts for nations. He calls natal charts "particular constitutions," and charts for mundane astrology, "universal constitutions."

Should these conjunctions give charts for the moment of exact conjunction giving a chart for the coming period? Like the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions of 1980 and 2000 gave charts for the following 20 years? And what about Jupiter and Saturn ingresses (in Aries), are these also involved?

The repeating of the angles of the base chart is a good indication the promise of the chart will be fulfilled. The reversal indicates the promise will be harmed. This is very broad so don't use it as a stand alone rule.

I'm not sure if I understand this, because the angles repeat themselves every 24 siderial hours. Or should this be interpreted in terms of the yearly Aries ingress charts? If that is the case note that every 33 years the Aries ingress (or any repeating Sun position, like Solar returns) will give the same Ascendant and MC.

I also once read that the astrologers were very optimistic about the future in the late 1930's. Not only the astrologers. The Great Depression came to an end and even Hitler's actions in the 1930's were rather admired by other countries. Finally in 1939 it became clear to most that Hitler wouldn't stop.

Another one of the few astrologers who weren't optimistic about the future of the late 1930's was the Indian astrologer B.V. Raman.

Should these conjunctions give charts for the moment of exact conjunction giving a chart for the coming period? Like the Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions of 1980 and 2000 gave charts for the following 20 years?

Yes. Morin does not spend as much time on these as he acknowledged that accurately casting a chart for such a conjunction was nearly impossible in his day. I wonder if we are that much better at it today.

And what about Jupiter and Saturn ingresses (in Aries), are these also involved?

Not that I am aware of, and if so, they would be of minor importance.

I'm not sure if I understand this, because the angles repeat themselves every 24 sidereal hours. Or should this be interpreted in terms of the yearly Aries ingress charts? If that is the case note that every 33 years the Aries ingress (or any repeating Sun position, like Solar returns) will give the same Ascendant and MC.

In nativities let us propose a chart that has 15 Taurus rising and 20 Aquarius on the MC. Every once in a while, the solar return will have the ASC in Taurus and the MC in Aquarius. Not always both at the same time, but that can happen, too. In those years, when Taurus is on the ASC and/or Aquarius is on the MC, those charts are considered particularly powerful. The closer the degrees in the revolution match the degree of the nativity, the more powerful it is.

Every so often the angles in the Solar Return are opposite the angles in the nativity. Those years are powerful too. The older authors universally say this is bad, but I think practice indicates it isn't necessarily bad or as bad as they predict.

These are strong indicators that the particular revolution is important.

In mundane, the base chart is the Aries Ingress. In the example above, the angles of the Aries Ingress are repeated in the Cancer Ingress when both are set for Paris. The same principles apply as apply in nativities.

I also once read that the astrologers were very optimistic about the future in the late 1930's. Not only the astrologers. The Great Depression came to an end and even Hitler's actions in the 1930's were rather admired by other countries. Finally in 1939 it became clear to most that Hitler wouldn't stop.

The Great Depression did not end in the 1930s. Recent intelligent scrutiny has shown that WWII didn't end it either. In the US, the stock market crash of 1937 was in many ways worse than the crash in 1929. The American Gross National Product (as it was called in those days. It is the Gross Domestic Product today or GDP) didn't hit its pre 1929 levels until 1955; 10 years after the war ended.

Hitler, like every other mass murderer in the 20th century, was praised by the NY Times. This is not a pretty track record. Not everyone was fooled, however, but not many listened to Churchill until it was too late. In the US, Hitler had strong support among German immigrants and others, including founding father Joseph P. Kennedy, aviator Charles Lindbergh, and writer/journalist H. L. Mencken. Mencken supported Germany in WWI albeit quietly. Denial is a strong defense mechanism.

Tom

Part 2.

To recap, we?ve looked at the Aries Ingress of 1939 and the Cancer Ingress of 1939 and determined that there are sufficient repetitions in the Cancer Ingress chart to predict that war will break out before the Libra Ingress in 1939. Ordinarily this should be good enough. Our author, however, says we can do better. He does better, too, but he admits he did this after the fact. The previous work was done before the fact and publication refused. Now he?s gilding the lily.

From the Cancer Ingress of June 1939 we cast lunation charts, again for Paris, and we look for similarities with the previous chart or charts. With the help of a computer, this is pretty easy. It was not so easy in the 1940s. In order to cut to the chase, I?ll give it away. There was a lunation in Paris on Aug 15, 1939 that, like the two ingress charts had Leo rising and Aries on the MC. Pieroz says:

Precisely also, the lunation of 14 August (Not sure how he gets this, my computer calculation puts it at 5:53:13 AM CED, Paris France, on August 15, 1939. The full Moon occurs at 25 Leo. One time the date is given as August 15. I think there are either typos in the original, or the translation) presents the same characteristics: ASC in Leo, Mars in the 6th, ruler of the MC; Saturn in the 10th ruler of the 7th.

This is our chart. I?m assuming no other chart between the Cancer and Libra Ingress duplicates the things we saw in the Aries and Cancer Ingresses. Therefore the war will begin after August 15 1939 and before September 21, 1939.

He?s not done. From this point Morin tells us in Section I, Aphorism 3, Chapter 12 of Book 25 (page 91 of the Holden translation AFA). Words in italics re Morin's. Everything else in the quote is Heiroz.

1. By directions. We read there in effect: They (the effects) are produced by the fact of the directions of the luminaries or of the angles, especially of the ASC, towards some congruent promittors, as well as towards some of the rulers of the universal chart.

In the course of the lunation from the 15th of August to the 13th of September we were able to calculate three directions of this kind.

Interlude. Morin gives a table of directions in chapter 12 for directing a lunation (page 94). I am forced to admit, I am not yet sure how Heiroz obtained two of the three that follow, but I?m sure I?ll figure it out someday. So we?ll take his word for it. He is directing the lunation chart, or he says he is. The directions marked with an asterisk (*) are the ones I can?t figure out:

MC square Mars on 11 September
Sun opposite Saturn about the 3rd September*
Moon opposite Saturn about 8th of September*

2. By Transits. We read further in the same aphorism: the effects are born ? when the luminaries apply by body or by aspect t the rulers of the charts; and we know on the other hand (Chapter IX Section 1) that in the syzygies, the swiftest planet is the only one to be examined; we must then, in the lunation of the 14th of August take note of the transits of the Moon to Mars and Saturn. We find:

Moon conjunct Mars on 26 August at 10:04
Moon conjunct Saturn on 3 September at 12:33

We state definitely that a unique date calls itself to our attention at the same time by directions and by transits. The date is:

The THIRD OF SEPTEMBER 1939

It is then very probable that it is on this day the inauspicious effects of this deplorable Ingress of 21 March 1939 will manifest themselves.

And so it proved or it was two days late. The German Army invaded Poland on September 1, 1939. Not bad though considering the majority of astrologers said there would be no war at all.

As I said I am unclear as to how he directed the Sun and Moon opposite Saturn. I?ll have to work on that. I do see how he directed the MC to the square of Mars, however. I verified the transits with an ephemeris.

I don?t know that all mundane predictions can be made with this kind of accuracy using Morin?s techniques. I rather doubt it. Personally I would have been satisfied with getting it between ingresses and more than satisfied by narrowing it down further with a lunation. But it would be fun to keep working and trying to nail things down with even more precision.

I think most importantly this exercise makes a good case for sticking with the Aries Ingress as a valid predictive tool. Not only because it proved itself in this case, but because it proved itself when many other astrologers failed, and it proved itself with instructions written 300 years before the events. I find that to be impressive. It tests Carter?s notion that Aries Ingress charts are useless, and Campion?s observation that the planets are in the same places for every country, and therefore the chart has little value. While the fact that the planets are the same everywhere is undoubtedly true, it might also be irrelevant. I wonder if Mr. Campion is overly concerned about the aspects more than the placements. Modern astrologers place a great deal more emphasis on aspects than traditionalists. It wouldn?t matter to a traditionalist that Mars is square Saturn in every nation?s chart because that aspect is less important than the house placement of the planet. It also seems odd that every nation would require a unique chart in order to predict events. This seems only to add to the complexity of an already complex subject. England and France are close to each other and the ingress charts would be similar. But in this case, their fates were closely intertwined as well. The same is true for Italy and Germany. I?m not sure I see the advantage of working with four unique charts for one World War.

This exercise will not settle the question, nor was it intended to do that. It was intended simply to create an interest in an old technique that still holds up pretty well.

Tom

I am not up to Book XXV yet but I do have M?sh??All?h on Revolutions so I will try to keep up at the back.

The rapid fall of France was remarkable. Our lot were not much help either. We did not commit enough air power.

Plus ?a change

Thank you, Tom, this stuff is absolutely fascinating and I don't have a great background in mundane. A little Abu Ma'shar and a few others, though, thankfully - but not near enough.

At some point I'd like to read some of Morin. Meanwhile I've been tracking stuff since our last corrupt election wondering if things will blow sky-high before the Olympics.

Kind of hoping they will as thousands of people have died, and tens of thousands made homeless to bring these circuses to us in summer 2010, but I don't know. Been doing the ingresses, eclipses, and lunations. We shall see.

Again, thank you for your mini-tutorial! It'll be some months before I can buy books again - I really appreciate it.