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Morinus software primary directions and my chart/speculum

1 by Tzu Jan
June 17, 1966
10:30
New Orleans, LA, USA
90w05 29n57

I've been trying to work with Morinus pd section lately. I'm fairly certain that my birth time is correct b/s a very good astrologer helped me rectify it. But when I run Morinus pd I don't find many if any dates hitting any major events in my life.

When I did a speculum ala Lilly, I took my Asc per se and ran down Virgo till there was a hit to the square of Sun 26Vir01, next terms of Mars 26vir26 and then opposition Saturn 29Vir12. Now I totaled a car on my 18th birthday and I was looking for something hitting any of these but don't find any. What do you think. BTW, I did have an accident the following easter break (April 1985) where I totaled another car, but this time injured my right arm.

What do you think is going on there?

Tzu Jan
Tzu Jan

Birth Time

2 by Steve
Tzu Jan, your birth time of 10:30--is this PM OR AM? When you totaled your car the first time--where was the location of this event?

Thanks, Steve
With all our modern knowledge and scientific equipment, and with the the great strides made in mathematics, we astrologers have done nothing to even remotely compare with the achievements of the astrologers of antiquity. Cyril Fagan

Re: Morinus software primary directions and my chart/speculu

4 by Martin Gansten
Now I totaled a car on my 18th birthday and I was looking for something hitting any of these but don't find any. What do you think. BTW, I did have an accident the following easter break (April 1985) where I totaled another car, but this time injured my right arm.
I get a tropical Asc of 6?28' Virgo for you; is that right?

There are several relevant directions around the period you mention (the precise times at which they perfect will depend on a number of variables, including the time-key used). They include afflictions from the malefics to both the luminaries (one of which is your hyleg) and between themselves:

Mars to the zodiacal square of Saturn, direct motion
Saturn to the zodiacal square of Mars, converse motion (in the traditional sense!)
Sun to the zodiacal parallel of Mars, direct motion
Moon to the zodiacal square of Saturn, direct motion

There are others, depending on which techniques you favour, but I think these would be sufficient.

5 by Tom
This would make a great discussion on the traditional forum. I've had similar concerns although I've never had my chart rectified, I do have and use a reasonable birth certificate time. It works. I was thinking the same thing about directions to the angles, There didn't seem to be any that coincided to major events in my life. I chalked off to an unremarkable life, but because of this thread I took a different tack.

I had two incidents when I was very young that could have been tragic, but I emerged unscathed. The first was a brush with polio. I had been playing with a neighborhood child who came down with polio shortly afterward. A few weeks later I had all the initial symptoms. This was the pre-vaccine era. A doctor came over. There was nothing he could do. The symptoms disappeared and several decades later I relayed the story to my then physician and he said I probably picked up the disease, but my body fought it off. Lucky.

The same or following year (don't recall) I took a spill off my bicycle and fell in the street. My palm was cut and my mother scrubbed the wound and put antiseptic on it, bandaged it and let it go. It wasn't serious. Only this time, I developed blood poisoning and the doctor did what he could but confided in a neighbor who was a friend that he thought I would lose my arm. I recovered.

I looked at the primary directions at this time looking for hard stuff and instead found a Sun Moon trine, Sun Jupiter conjunction, Mercury Jupiter sextile. When you think about it the incidents were not pleasant but given the possible alternatives, the directions make some sense in terms of the outcome. Those were good times to have problems.

Tom

6 by Olivia
I've had some similar things, Tom, and they haven't always had good outcomes - unless you count having survived as a good outcome - I guess it is, but....

And some major, major stuff in my life that seems to have no directions relating to it at all, no matter what method of directing I use. Or even more frustrating in a way, is I can try one method, get a hit for one event, try it for another event, and - nothing.

I do know that PDs can't be used alone, though. But at this point I'm really wondering where they fit into the scheme of direction by term (that's been pretty consistent for me), firdar - okay, definitely mixed and I've been trying Bonatti's methods - if he was right then I'm sorry I won't live to see more South Node firdars because that was one of the happiest periods in my entire life (NB: I was born under a solar eclipse, with a peregrine, afflicted Sun, so the SN should not be happy, and by other methods, it's not). And the rest of them fit about as well, too.

I think I may go back to Al Biruni's firdar (that one seems more consistent - and I was born at night), keep direction by term, keep SRs and lunar returns, and - I still don't know what to do with primaries. It's probably my own ignorance, but there have been some mighty big things with no indicators whatsoever in that regard.

7 by Tzu Jan
Hi. I'm not sure how I got this topic in this forum. First time making a topic. Perhaps if one of you knows how to contact the moderator to change it to the proper forum we could do that.

A couple of things,
Morinus has my asc as 6.27 virgo, but zet has it as 6.28 virgo which could affect where things end up some.

I noticed Martin in Morinus two of those pd happen a year before and two happen a year afterwards. I guess I just expected them to be closer to the event.

Now that particular year was a 6th house profected which is ruled by Saturn who in my SR is in the 11th house scor, conj mars, sextile Jupiter(r) 1st house. In my 1st accident I had a friend in the car with me (mars perhaps). The second time i was by myself.

I also notice in the 1st accident Sat and Mars are in conj in my 3rd house, the first accident occurred with my brother's car.

I would think that since that year my prof house was aquarius ruled by saturn then those pd involving saturn would be the ones activated, no?
Tzu Jan

8 by Martin Gansten
Tzu Jan wrote:I noticed Martin in Morinus two of those pd happen a year before and two happen a year afterwards. I guess I just expected them to be closer to the event.
That's why I didn't put dates to the directions: there are many factors affecting timing, especially when the Moon is involved. (Now that my book is out, I won't rehearse them all here! ;)) The major one would normally fall within the correct year, but it is advisable not to view directions in isolation. Play with the various settings a bit and see what seems to produce the closest hits.

11 by Tom
Hi Olivia,

I"m not real sure I'm about to answer your questions, but I'll try to help you sort some things out. What follows has nothing to do with profections or firdaria. Those are separate issues and staying with Bonatti on that is probably a good idea.

When I first gingerly approached primary directions I thought that with only about 6 hours of clock time covering a lifetime, that there wouldn't be much to work with. That was wrong. There is plenty to work with. My problem is mostly whittling away the excess and keeping things simple. The directions you are looking for might be there; you're just missing them.

Start with the radix. This is the potential. If the potential doesn't exist, then it isn't going to happen no matter how many directions, returns, transits etc occur that indicate it will. On another thread we are discussing the violent end of Henry II of France. But even with the violent direction of the ASC to Mars if there are no indication of a violent death in the chart, it isn't going to happen.

Morin tells us that returns or what he would have called "revolutions" are efficient causes of events that hold a middle ground between the nativity and transits. The term "efficient cause" comes from Aristotle who identified all possible causes of events, structures, etc. If we contemplate a shoe, the material cause of the shoe would be leather (What is it made of?) the efficient cause would be the shoemaker (Who made it?). What is it that is being made (a shoe) is the formal cause. It's purpose (protect feet) is the final cause.

If we apply this to the events (accidents he would have called them) in the life, the material cause of the accidents would be the nativity and the directions. The efficient cause would be the revolutions. The event itself would be the formal cause, and I suppose God's plan for the native is the final cause at least in Morin's view.

So the natal chart is the potential and that potential is shown by planets in signs and houses and the potential is put into motion by directions. A revolution that is similar to the nativity or somehow gets the native moving on fulfilling his destiny. Therefore, a revolution that shows something that is promised in the chart that does not have a corresponding direction is unlikely to produce the potential at all or perhaps only in part or temporarily. A direction without a corresponding revolution lacks an efficient cause and cannot fulfill the promise of the chart.

I don't know that it works out this well in practice, but it might help you to look at it this way and peek at those directions again.

Tom

12 by Olivia
I can follow you on natal promise and revolutions - those have made a great deal of sense. Primaries - jury's still out, but I still don't know them that well. And obviously the things that happened happened because there was natal promise, and then the revolutions set them off. Thanks for that - it's a very clear exposition.

On firdaria -

Yes, but but but.....in Abu Ma'shar's On Solar Revolutions, he says that the Nodes go at the very end of the line whether it's a day chart or a night chart, and he says so very clearly.

Bonatti's great, don't get me wrong, and yes, I can see some sense in doing it his way.

But we've got Abu Ma'shar on the other side here, and he was amazing.

I suspect it may take more practise with night births and firdar to come to a firm conclusion.

Steven - can you weigh in here? Cos I know you know them both better than I do!
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