The 12th is an accidental debility, but I don't think you should jump to bad conclusions. I think it's pretty clear that the mom is fertile, and there is an indication that she will likely conceive soon. I don't see why a woman who is young and fertile, as indicated here, would have to worry about the baby being ill. Just because someone has trouble conceiving doesn't mean that they will have complications carrying. I think all of the astrologers who observed the chart agree that the dad appears to be the culprit, and he would have little to do with the baby reaching full term, unless maybe his sperm is defective at conception, and that relates to the baby's health, or some other genetic aberration occurs, etc.

And I wouldn't conclude that Mercury (8th ruler of the baby) afflicts Saturn. Besides, the conjunction is separating.

Tanit

thanks again

YES you are right merc/saturn are separating... i saw that too ...
these charts are sooo sensitive.. I've never been pregnant so I would assume every step of 9 months joiurney can be either very easy or complicated... i dont know how 2 look for it.. i was rereading death of the baby chart in Anthony Louis'book so that got me all wired up

thanks a lot

CD

Hi CD,
Do you know what happened to this client? Did she became pregnant

regards,
Tienka

Hi Tinka

NOPE - the querent never got pregnant. No wonder why I was tapping into Saturn.

Horary just NEVER FAILS!

CD

I hate looking at old posts from 2009! I was a novice.

I don't see how Saturn is debilitated by being in the 12th, when it is its planetary joy. It also has slight dignity by term.

Um, yeah... Saturn in Virgo, a barren planet in a barren sign, ruling the 5th in the 12th. Not so much.

My Mercury is dignified but separates from a square to Jupiter, then trines Saturn - so it's a lot of jumping to false conclusions, then studying something further and understanding it better.

Tanit wrote: Um, yeah... Saturn in Virgo, a barren planet in a barren sign, ruling the 5th in the 12th. Not so much.
r.

I have that combo in my Natal chart only with Saturn inside the 1st - I never liked it!

I have that combo in my Natal chart only with Saturn inside the 1st - I never liked it!

Do you desire children? You mentioned before that you have Saturn in Virgo, but part of its "barrenness" might be out of choice. I have a Scorpio 5th with Uranus occupying and Mars in Aries ruling in the 10th and I have never really wanted kids, I am more focused on other goals and enjoy freedom. My mother's main mission in life was to have children and she never had a career, and that probably influenced my leanings, as well as the fact that my eldest sister had a child at age 14 and I learned how much responsibility it can be as a mother.

Deb has an article on traditional aphorisms for pregnancy matters, for anyone who hasn't read it:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/pregnancy.html

The chart seems supportive of medical treatment being effective because of the Moon in domicile in the 10th applying to conjunct the ASC ruler (pushing disposition), although Saturn influencing could take longer or she might require a surrogate. Saturn doesn't behold its own house (although I guess Mars does and aspects Saturn - probably because Mars has the most influence in NOT getting pregnant because it's malefic here out of sect and peregrine) and is debilitated.

It does still seem the guy is less fertile to me, and she might be the one who would have better luck than he would (say if you use sperm donor vs. egg). The querent is Venus (fertile) in a water sign (fertile) conjunct Moon (fertile). Mars-Saturn relationship is hostile, Mars is a fire planet in a sign of Mercury (not fertile) and it's also applying to Jupiter, ruler of the 6th in the 5th, who returns light to Mars via retro movement (a sort of rejection I guess, especially since Jupiter is expansive). The Mars-Saturn-Jupiter link is separating and it next applies to a very benefic Sun though - still not the most fertile planet, especially in a fire sign. Mars-Sun seems like it would have been more positive movement within the yr than in the past, but I guess they've had no luck at all?

Yeah Tanit.. NOOOOOOOOO luck zerooo zilch!

She wants him to be the daddy no sperm eggs none of the modern tweaks.
The guy is a chain smoker. Every doctor tells him stop smoking. His reply is "my daddy produced 7 of us with packs of cigs in his mouth, i can do the same!"

Lemme see if there is another chart. I know there is 1 somewhere. We run it again on the same issue sometime in the fall.

MY OTHER guess is it is just timing not months but years maybe this year? Good thing Tinka brought up the question about the update.

Tanit.. Lilly wrote that Jupiter in 5th house helps the question *it is in fertility section*
Saturn Lord of 5th being in 12th MAKES me seriously think that this pregnancy will need some serious medical care. Plus look at this mars is leaving square with Saturn yet being reunited by a square from mercury. Mars is barren - saturn is barren - venus is fertile so is the moon ... Jupiter is barren as well

I checked 2 horaries we run.. NO One of them are showing any kind of hope and only 1 was actually within hour agreement

1. radical chart was on a question "will i be pregnant within 6 months - saturn ruled the 1st - virgo moon was barrren in 8th, venus - lord of 5th via combusta retro and combusted - nothing here


2nd chart is AMUZING ... question was WILL I BE PREGNANT IN 2011?
late asce = 27 virgo
Mercury is retro cappy - not barren!
Jupiter is - FERTILE
Saturn lord of 5th is in 1st (we keep getting that)
moon is barren but will enter fertile in 5th house and will sextiles mars

but there are no direct aspects.

Very difficult to find some hope on this

cheers
CD

Hi all,
It is interesting to read in the article Can astrology bring you a baby, that Virgo was not considered barren by Wanda Sellars: The signs of Taurus, Cancer, Virgo, Scorpio, Capricorn and Pisces were judged fruitful or fertile signs, while Aries, Gemini, Leo, Libra, Sagittarius and Aquarius were judged barren or infertile signs, with Cancer, Scorpio and especially Pisces being the most fertile. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/harris.html
I always wondered why Lilly called it barren: the image of Virgo is so "fruitful"to me and earth is so connected to fertility. It seems more logical that fire signs and air signs are more barren than the earth signs?
What do you think?
regards,
Tienka

Tanit wrote:
Do you desire children? You mentioned before that you have Saturn in Virgo, but part of its "barrenness" might be out of choice. I have a Scorpio 5th with Uranus occupying and Mars in Aries ruling in the 10th and I have never really wanted kids, I am more focused on other goals and enjoy freedom.

Hi, T!

Actually, I have asked myself this same question many times but I'd say that the answer is still "yes"- generally speaking, I do want children. But I would say that this combination has been very descriptive of my approach to maternity so far. Saturn causes delays and, besides the objective fact that I'm 31 and still childless, I think that my maternal instinct was somewhat late too. I believe that I was 24 when I first realised that I would actually like to have children one day (when compared to my cousins who gave birth to their first child at the age of 18, I was VERY late ).
My Venus is in Cancer on the 11th cusp which obviously helped this deep wish to eventually come to the surface. But Virgo has played a huge role as well- besides the fact that my L5 is placed inside it, it is also the ruler of my Ascendant and I have always been well aware of the fact that becoming a mother is the biggest task a woman can undertake in her life and that becoming pregnant should be a well organised plan. (Although, o occasions, my Aquarius Moon says- oh, give me a break, the circumstances will never be perfect, just have that baby! ). The truth is, I see it a spiritual task as something important and huge and want to be up to the task. Also, I want to be sure (if possible) that I can actually give the child all that it needs. So, as you can see, it is a typical Virgo approach! As a matter of fact- my Ascendant ruler in a fiery sign and my Aquarius Moon usually make a good balance to my Virgo Ascendant and, although I probably am rational, I'm hardly ever find myself trapped in self-imposed delays caused by the wish to always do everything perfectly; quite the contrary, i often follow my impulses and can even act quite rashly in many situations but, in this particular case, the ruler of the 5th is slow and methodical and it is influenced by Virgo . In a way, this particular house is a place where both influences become more obvious. Saturn is angular and it wins- it takes all the time in the world to think of a better plan.

Hi all,
It is interesting to read in the article Can astrology bring you a baby, that Virgo was not considered barren by Wanda Sellars: The signs of Taurus, Cancer, Virgo, Scorpio, Capricorn and Pisces were judged fruitful or fertile signs, while Aries, Gemini, Leo, Libra, Sagittarius and Aquarius were judged barren or infertile signs, with Cancer, Scorpio and especially Pisces being the most fertile. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/harris.html
I always wondered why Lilly called it barren: the image of Virgo is so "fruitful"to me and earth is so connected to fertility. It seems more logical that fire signs and air signs are more barren than the earth signs?
What do you think?
regards,
Tienka

Hi, Tienka!

This is a very, very interesting topic and something that I, myself, have often spent hours thinking about. Some modern astrologers (Bob Marks being one of them) tend to describe Virgo as a sign one step ahead of taurus. They're both earth signs only, whilst Taurus is the raw and un-used earth (potential), Virgo is the garden or " Earth that has been Worked On and can now be fruitful." Of course, I'm giving this only as an example of the differences in the approach to the symbolism of this sign.
Another analogy comes to my mind when I think of this- I once talked to a Tarot-master (and, please note that, apart from the general symbolism, my knowledge in this virtue is pretty much minimal) and he said that, whilst the suit of cups (in Tarot) corresponds to Water (or, in astrology, watery triplicity), whenever he receives a question regarding marriage, long-term relationships and family, he hopes to see 'coins/pentacles' rather than cups in the spread because pentacles represent the Earth hence stability and concretisation of the plans (even activities) born under the influence of the cups (water, emotions).
Of course, not all the earthly signs are the same and Virgo is a virgin for a reason but I do have to agree that, sometimes, seeing it labelled a barren sign does make me wonder if our approach to its symbolism is a little shallow!

Cheers,

aglaya!

Cosmicdolphin,

Excuse me coming in late on this but I think what I have to say is noteworthy.

Saturn's lord of the horary's 5th/children is being separated by Cjt. by 5 minutes; Lilly as I understand allowed 6 minutes. And other Ancients allowed more. So without consulting Face, Terms, Dignity, etc., as others already have it looks positive.

But then this is really two questions I think in that you said 'WE' which to my understanding is like analizing a chart about one's potential Children, we have to look at the other's horoscope in Natals you know. So I think we have to look in this case at the 7th, the other or rather, the 7th's derived 5th; the 11th.

Notice that Mars is making a positive aspect to the derived 5th of the 7th/thier partner.

Without consulting the other factors I'd say, Yes, those two will have children.

And thanks for all the other varibles others have mentioned, great discussion.

Clinton Garrett Soule