My final go is 04 May 2002 at 2 am GMT+1 as the ascendant becomes the descendant if you see what I mean. Respect to all who came close.

Matt

Hello

Thank-you Deb for your comments. It's good to know I was not too far off.

Below, I am trying to find the right date in the given interval. Even if I am wrong, it's a good exercise.

During the period of time 15 April-15 May 2002, two dates seem outstanding :

- 27th April around 1 AM local time : Mars and Saturn are transiting natal Sun by conjunction and the Moon is squaring natal Moon.

- 3rd May around 1 PM local time : Mars and Saturn are transiting natal Sun by conjunction and the Moon is opposing natal Moon.

Since the accident occurred in the evening or at night, the 27th April is more likely. And this chart for the location of Weipa has some striking features :

- the ASC falls in the natal 8th
- the 8th cusp falls on natal Uranus
- in this chart, Mercury lord of 8th squares Uranus, suggesting a road accident.

So my answer is : 27th April around 1 AM local time.

Regards

Hello Deb,

Thanks for the challenge... it was fun, though I have to admit, very resembling of searching for a needle in a haystack.

In the original search, I did find the right period. Later, after reading the added information that you posted in the Members Section, I started to look at Lunar Returns around that period Mar - Oct 2002. The correct time WAS one of two that stood out initially using my normal methods. I allowed the Lunar Returns to carry too much weight in this and focused on them, rather than the methods that led me to the right period to begin with...

My advice, ie. what I've learned this time around, is:

a) stick to mostly normal methods, they will lead you there
b) once you've answered the question, have the confidence to just let it stand (the original thrust is sometimes the most defining of the moment)

Personally, I feel that this was an important exercise. It certainly left me with a "focus on the fundamentals" mindset when approaching a question that is so very "open-ended" as this one.

Thanks very much, Deb. It was fun and I learned something!

Congrats to everyone who was close and thanks to all who stepped up to the plate.

TransmaniaconMC

(I don't mind you abbreviating my pretentious name, D, but please don't shorten it to "Tranny" and be mindful of what you're left with AFTER the abbreviation. The name actually comes from a great song, basically about Harleys, mayhem, and the murder of Meredith Hunter at Altamont at the hands of Hell's Angels. If you're going to shorten it and hope of retaining some of the original intent, then "maniac" is probably the closest to what is true.)

Glad you enjoyed it and congratulations on your impressive selection!
Now, with regard to the name thing, let me explain. (Please bear in mind I am being a bit light-hearted; but still, it?s a problem?).

When we dialogue with people in the forum we build up a sense of a persona. But there is just no way that I can write a post, that starts with something like ?Dear TransmaniaconMC?? I simply cannot do it. (Maybe the problem is ?me??)
On the other hand, I want to eliminate the maniacs from the forum, not encourage them, so that doesn?t work for me either. I couldn?t possibly take you seriously. But then again, I do understand your concern, and ?Tranny? is not going to be the answer
How about ?TMC? ? could you live with that? It holds a kind of ?homeopathic memory? of your crazy mayhem?

Well, I was many years off target. With the given info I'd go for May 10th because of Venus and Mars square MC opposite to and triggering the Pluto transit square MC. Perhaps it was already just past midnight over there in Australia making the date the 11th.

Hello Deb,

Thank you very much!

Well, in the interest of making this more personable, I have included a photo. Now, even though the name is weird, some might say pretentious, at least there is a person to relate to. It is obviously a real picture of me, else I would have chosen a better one.

Since this isn't a dark alley, perhaps the photo will invoke more camaraderie than fear.

Eliminate maniacs from the Forum? Hey, maniacs are people too! Some of my best experiences in my life would have been impossible without some real maniacs to urge me on.

Still, I can relate. There must be a semblance of order or the whole thing falls apart. We can't have that, then there are no more Challenges with which to hone our craft.

Enjoy!

TMC (not to be confused with The Movie Channel)

Oh my lord, you are even normal ... Nice to meet you at last!
OK, back 'on-topic'. Are you going to try and improve on your effort so far, and suggest a particular date?
D

Hi Steven

That?s a wonderful explanation of some of the traditional techniques used to consider this ? thank you so much for that. It is just the kind of hindsight review I was hoping for.
I am quite sure that I would not have been able to predict this date in advance using the natal chart, but I felt that theoretically it could be done, which is why I wanted to share this data as an experiment, for people with knowledge of techniques that I don?t personally use. Although I can?t pretend to know more than I do know about this situation; the information I have given is reliable and gives us something by which we can explore the objective reliability of traditional (and modern!) techniques. The dramatic nature of this death, and the way that a life ended so abruptly makes me think that this would not happen without astrological evidence of a sudden catastrophe to activate the destructive potential in the birth chart.

I won?t say too much at this stage since I am keen to see how feasible it is for an astrologer to have foreseen the actual moment. I don?t want to spoil that by giving information that might lead or mislead. But remember that I was asked to make a judgement on the event chart for the time of the accident. So at this stage, besides the daily triggering influence of the Moon, I think people need to be looking at the angles of the location, to find a moment which seems to give a signature of destruction, and which also makes a close correlation to the damaging contacts in the original birth chart.

Deb

Well, I am not surprised that I got the date wrong, as I decided to be faithful to the methodology after I couldn't find much directional support for the years 2001-03 even though I did notice the 2001 July-August and 2002 April-May dates with dramatic transits.
It is not at all difficult to locate those dates if you have a paper ephemeris and look for Mars transits around 10-20 Mutables. In fact the first post that mentioned the year 2002 in this thread was after the clues of repeating aspects were given. The problem here is to justify the selection of one date in preference to others. A case can be made that 2001 July-August is equally dangerous or even worse since both Mars and Pluto stationed then and moved slowly and the Mars conjunct Pluto in opposition to Saturn repeated the natal aspect whereas in May 2002, Mars and Saturn were in conjunction and moved faster. Since only one date is allowed for the 5/25-year period, one needs to explain convincingly why he/she chose a particular date and why earlier dates are eliminated using the methodology employed. Another point to remember is that dramatic transits are not the norm for accidents/deaths as one would realize after looking over hundreds of cases. Having said that I am very satisfied to see that an unusual death occurred under a once-in-a-lifetime Pluto station conjunct natal MA/SA together with Mars-Saturn conjunction on Sun transits.

I get it, Steven. Wasn't playing as I couldn't get Janus open until yesterday (still with the computer problems), but it's so strange. You look at a chart and you just know things about it from an initial impression.

Then you start really analysing and all of a sudden the things you know get outnumbered by a lot of rules.

This has always puzzled me, since astrology is not particularly intuitive, but I always do better if I follow that first instinct - which also seems to match up to the rules nicely, but not as nicely as I can talk myself out of if I go off on another tangent. I've shot myself in the foot more than once doing it.

Hi Deb,

My posted request was not well thought out. Date and place data would have been enough or place and period as you have now given. Thank you for pointing out the foolishness of my request. Have been dealing with distractions here and they seem to be more distracting with every passing day. Not a personal problem but someone else's about which I can do nothing but feel helpless and frustrated while hoping for the best.

The chart below equates to May 11, 2002 at 5 AM, AEST, Weipa. From experience most of the time planet/angle connections have planets at slightly less right ascension than the angles. I consider aspects within 1? as exact hits as the location of events is not usually the center of town and a difference of 1 minute of time in the birth chart would make a difference of 1/4 of a degree, with 4 minutes making a difference of 1?. A difference of 1? in a progressed lunar equates to a real time difference of about 2 hours.

To agree with your statement

Deb wrote: In fact, I?ll tell you this, the moment of the accident occurred with the transit Moon in perfect alignment with the natal Moon. So if you get the day right, you may well be able to identify the exact moment that this occurred.

would require a time of 1:00 AM. As the coordinates for the exact location are not known and it is possible that the watch or clock from which the birth time was recorded could have been 1 or 2 minutes off, or that death could have occurred some time after the accident, I will accept the chart below as being very near the time of death. With an exact time of birth and exact coordinates the 5 AM time could prove to be 1 AM or very nearly so.

Notice how the angles of the progressed lunar return are nearly the same as the birth place angles for the birth chart.

Bob

(I withdrew my post when I realized the objective at this point was finding the moment of the event, rather than the day, although using the natal chart only I think that early morning May 11th is implicated due to the transiting mars/venus conjunction squaring natal mars/saturn opposition and progressed jupiter/saturn square.)