Hi peeps,

I asked a horary today, about the possible success of a business venture I'm considering, and the chart didn't look promising (it looked promising to my husband, tho, who is going to be my partner). I got a bit angry because this business is something I've had in mind for quite a while.

So I just wondered...... What if we let our enthusiasm wan just because of an astrological chart? What if we give up our interests only due to an ugly horary (which can easily be misread, by the way).

Did anyone here ever "defy" a horary reading, so to speak? Anyone ever tried to venture in a matter that was red-flagged by a chart, and came out successfully? After all, altho I'm a firm believer in astrology, I don't want to follow such things blindly.

Well, we can only offer you our personal opinions here.


Answer to the main question (in the title): Many times! And i still do!"

Trying to go against the promise is more or less the same thing as trying to pull out a Yes answer from an obvious "NO- chart"! This way or the other- the Querent (or the Native- as such things often happen in Natal readings as well) is trying to change what seems to be an inevitable outcome. But- it does not necessarily mean a complete "lack of free will"!

I'm not religious and I'm an extremely analytical person, always looking for answers and explanations. As you can imagine- it took me quite some time to "get used" to Astrology and about 50% of my literature during the first 6 years of studying was philosophical as I was trying to find enough evidences that the Astrology does not prevent us from controlling our lives. And it doesn't- that answer had been lying in front of my eyes for quite a long time only I kept on and on refusing to see it. SOME things are inevitable or, in better words: some influences will often/usually/always inevitably bring about certain result that we cannot change- others are pure potential. No- we can not prevent the things from happening. Some things. But we do have control.

Not only are we surrounded by inevitability on daily basis - but we actually get used to it at a very early age. Our parents tell us that we should not touch the oven when it's hot - we're not in control there- if we touch it, it will burn our hand. Full stop.
We watch our parents complaining after reading the weather forecast for tomorrow (why? Because it will rain! No question about it!), we buy winter clothes in autumn, we don't go fishing when the Moon is full, we don't go sunbathing at 3AM, the architects do not question the existence of a phenomena called "water tide" , when we jump we know we will eventually hit the ground....and yet we don't think our behaviour/beliefs are fatalistic- it's a simple precaution! Of course. Because we know some things will/would happen and we know we cannot/will not be able to change them. But, if we cannot change THEM, we can at least make sure that we are prepaired for them and do whatever we can to prevent them from harming us- we can wear warm jackets when it's cold outside, take an umbrella with ourselves when it rains, or make sure to go to the beach only after the sunrise. We accept prognosis of all kinds all the time- and use them only to make our lives easier. And -some of these things are actually dependant upon the placement of the Earth in the Heliocentric system, its nature, its gravity etc.
I see Astrology the same way - if the Earth's nature and its gravity are powerful enough to keep the objects and people on its surface; if the sunlight can create life and directly affect all sorts of different processes in the Nature; if the Moon can cause every single sea on this planet to "move"; than we have to accept that the planets affect our lives in plenty more ways (that is - if we decide to believe that- not everyone will accept Astrological explanations!).
And, when we do acknowledge their influences, we soon become aware of the fact that we are not able to control most or some of them just like we can't stop the rain from falling or the Moon from causing the Solar eclipse. But we can respect them and adjust our lives to them . Astrological readings only keep us informed- if there's no potential for something to happen, I'd say - yes, it is a waste of time (but, then again- could we switch the light on in a house with no electric installations?!). At the same time- Astrology will help us notice/recognise/find potentials, possibilities , fruitful periods that we would otherwise probably miss. My uncle hates reading or watching weather forecast- but knowing the prognosis might have helped him and his family 3 years ago when they got home from a picnic soaked wet!:)

Still- on a very personal level, I can say that I almost never ask someone whom I have just met to share his/her natal data with me. If someone would ask me out on a date- I would go and try to meet that person better IN PERSON. I would surely use the help of Astrology later on but- I do get your point - sometimes, I simply want to find some things out by myself. Someone's chart would certainly give a better insight into that person's temperament but then- why bothering going on a date; I can stay at home and get to know him better by looking at his chart! BUT- in order to allow ourselves to experience some things without the help of Astrology- we have to bring that decision in advance. If you want to give something a try- do it. if you want to know as to how big the chances of succeeding in it are- ask a Question! But, once you make the chart- you'll be looking at the probable answer and there'll be no way back. I say "probable" as- a good promise does not mean that you NEED to actually do something as long as it depends on you but, if there's no promise then- some things will not happen. That we have to be aware of. It's pretty much- take it or leave it.

When it comes to job/career questions especially in cases when there's (a lot of) money in the game (investments, the possibility of losing the money etc.) - I think asking a question is a very smart idea and logically, that going against the answer makes a very bad idea (one might lose his/her money) so, i'd certainly suggest the Querent to ask Astrology as to what other options he/she might have rather than to try to switch on a lightbulb with the power of his mind.
So, the bottom line is, I'd say, that we need to be ready for the Question (and its answer) in the first place. And , if we are not ready to "follow the things blindly" which actually means that we have to accept some influences as inevitable- we should simply let the things happen without knowing the prognosis (and that means- without checking our transits, our SR charts, asking Horary questions and so on)- everyone is free to do so. But, as long as we do believe in the lessons/advices/promises of the stars- and if we do decide to get them from our charts- we should respect them and accept them- for our own good; unless of course, we want to get soaked wet on our Sunday picnic .
This is, of course, just my personal opinion and the way I "understand" and accept the influence of the stars on our lives. I hope you'll find it useful.

Thanks for the reply, aglaya, very thoughtful.

To be honest, I'm inclined to believe in the non-existence of free will, I believe our choices are more illusions of choice than real choices... A necessary illusion. But I won't venture in such a theme because my doubt is about horary astrology specifically, and the good ol' free will vs. destiny is not a clash I intend to settle with this little thread of mine.

I don't question astrology as means to see individual potential, or individual destiny, since I've had countless evidences that there's truth to it. But my experience with horaries is very limited, so I don't think I have basis to have a formed opinion about it yet.

I've seen horaries gone wrong so, is this really a matter of going out in the snowstorm without a coat? If I go out in the snowstorm without a coat, I'm sure to freeze to death, but is Moon in detriment or Mars in fall an equivalent to a snowstorm already falling in front of your eyes, outside your window?

The question really is, have you ever seen a void of course Moon grant the querent's wish nonetheless?? Have you ever seen a chart that said NOOOOOOOOOOO with capital N and capital O eventually turn out as a big fat YES?

I personally made one of the greatest mistakes of my life in not listening to a horary. I quit my job in Feb, after a horary warned of financial difficulties afterwards, and regret. It was my last semester of school and I didn't like my job at all, to the point where it was causing my anorexia to flare up. I figured I could find a job after I graduated. Here it is 3+ months later, and still no job. I have no money, and am moving in with family. I am not the sort of person who takes getting her independence robbed from her very well at all. There were also other things that happened b/c I quit my job, which I regret just as much as losing an income and my apartment (as well as most of my belongings)

But I am very opinionated and stubborn, and never let anything in life change my mind about something if I have my mind made up.

SunMachine:

So I just wondered...... What if we let our enthusiasm wan just because of an astrological chart? What if we give up our interests only due to an ugly horary (which can easily be misread, by the way).

I know just what you mean. Just before I read your post, I had cast a chart asking if I'd enjoy the trip/vacation out of state we're going on tomorrow. And wouldn't you know it, I (Sat, ruler of Asc.) landed in the 8th, and now I can't help wondering if and what's going to go wrong!

So of course I've been trying to find other things in the chart to rationalize or counterbalance it, and maybe they're there, but ignorance would have been more bliss. Guess it's just a reminder we need to be careful what we ask for.

My confusion stems from the fact that this is the first time I ask about a matter that is still in my hands.

All the other times I asked a horary, I asked about things that would no longer require my choices, like "will my resume be well-received", 'will I pass the exam I did yesterday", things like that.

But I don't ever recall asking about something that is still in my own power to decide about.... This is where my confusion comes from.

Tanit, sorry to hear about your situation. At least you had the guts to take the step, I have a sister in a very situation similar to yours, she was literally getting sick with her job, throwing up, waking up in the middle of the night in panic, breaking in cold sweats, so, even tho she's confused right now, I actually see her improving health-wise. In her case, it was a matter of going poor or going nuts, and she decided for the first.

Carol, I totally hear you. It seems we asked a question at the same time, because I too was granted with Saturn in the 8th as significator...

Besides, can we win when we have Mars in Cancer, Moon in Capricorn, Jupiter retro to contend with....... I think not!

SunMachine - if it's a matter you still have control over, have you thought of doing an election instead of a horary? You know, the 'what would be the best time to...?' do whatever.

At least that's using astrology to work more for you than to simply show the outcome. Or take the horary and see if there's anything you can do to maximise the chances for a good outcome in it showing there.

I think astrology itself is solid - just that we astrologers don't always interpret correctly.

But elections might feel a bit less 'fated' than horaries do, at least for matters where the question is still under your control.

SunMachine wrote:Hi peeps,

I asked a horary today, about the possible success of a business venture I'm considering, and the chart didn't look promising (it looked promising to my husband, tho, who is going to be my partner). I got a bit angry because this business is something I've had in mind for quite a while.

So I just wondered...... What if we let our enthusiasm wan just because of an astrological chart? What if we give up our interests only due to an ugly horary (which can easily be misread, by the way).

Did anyone here ever "defy" a horary reading, so to speak? Anyone ever tried to venture in a matter that was red-flagged by a chart, and came out successfully? After all, altho I'm a firm believer in astrology, I don't want to follow such things blindly.

You can re-evaluate your business plans and if you find chinks in it-correct it and ask another horary.If similar theme appears all the time- look at your natal chart for business prospects.

Yes, I have ignored horaries many times and regretted it a few times. Generally, I use horary to tune up the plans. I realized one thing- if you are so desperate that you are not going to change your mind anyway then, don't ask a horary.

People who have had a mission in their life did not go to astrologers- the prophecy came to them

PD

For me, it always depends on the issue at hand. We ask horary for many purposes. Yes, the verdict by horary usually turns out right for me but then if there is some thing I am dying to do I will not stop myself because of a negative horary. Instead, I would use the chart to look at what is stopping from a favorable outcome and be a little more cautious about that factor.

Other thing is, it helps me to temper my expectations - be a little pragmatic than go jumping around, thinking I am the most suitable candidate. Of course, that does n't mean I will stop applying more jobs just because horary said I have no chance for the next 2 months.

Why just horary, it goes for natal astrology as well. If my chart says I am not destined to get married in next couple of years, that does n't stop me from hoping it will turn out otherwise or looking for suitable guys for the next 2 years.

Be it fate or horary, life surely is destined but who among us is fully capable of perfectly reading our destiny?

Well, I have been hooked on to it from almost an year now and some times I struggle to stop myself from asking too many questions.

Mscool

Olivia:

if it's a matter you still have control over, have you thought of doing an election instead of a horary? You know, the 'what would be the best time to...?' do whatever.

Yes, I'll certainly use that. We are right now negotiating to rent a store. There was a candidate to rent it before us, but apparently he is delaying the process, and the owner of the place said she is not willing to wait forever. She told us to go back there tomorrow, for she might have an answer about the place being available or not.

If it turns out she'll rent it for us, then you guys expect me to shower this place with electionals and horaries of all kinds, LOL!

At least that's using astrology to work more for you than to simply show the outcome.

Yes, that's the reason why I reacted badly to the chart. We dream about this for years, and then I ask a question and the chart just says "Not going anywhere. Next."...
By all the replies here, I'm noticing that it's not a good use of horary to expect monolithic answers and be a slave to them, but rather to use it to make the best of what we have to work with.

I guess the horary reflects how everything is just in the very first stages (Mercury, Mars, Moon and Venus in early degrees of their signs...), how we must prepare ourselves a lot better. We've been thinking of it for some years, but since rents here are so expensive, we didn't think it was possible to stablish the business with our current funds. This store seems a good opportunity, which we weren't exactly expecting.

I think instead of using the horary to ask about the success of the venture, I should've asked if it is a good idea to rent the store. But I'll wait till I have a reply from the owner. No use in asking a horary for a lost store. If she gives us the go-ahead, I'll ask a urgent horary about this.

Pankajdubey and Mscool:

You can re-evaluate your business plans and if you find chinks in it-correct it and ask another horary.If similar theme appears all the time- look at your natal chart for business prospects.

Instead, I would use the chart to look at what is stopping from a favorable outcome and be a little more cautious about that factor.

Sounds very good! I'll do that for sure. And you're right, if we desire something so much and are determined to do it, this feeling counts for something, isn't it? I believe our wishes and desires show a part of our destiny, as much as astrology does, and if astrology says it's going to be difficult, than maybe it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, maybe it just means it wasn't supposed to be easy in the first place. (That's my very capricorn self speaking).

Thanks everyone, you made me feel a lot better.

Olivia wrote: I think astrology itself is solid - just that we astrologers don't always interpret correctly.

.

True, so very true. Even bore starting this discussion, we need to assume that we'll have well delineated charts- we're not talking about the situations where the placement of the Moon is not examined well which can cause the Querent or the Astrologer to bring wrong conclusions. And, when it comes to well delineated charts- i don't see the difference between Horary and other branches of astrology. The Astrologers learn to read different sigs and to blend them into a single reading (sinthesis)-and, if the Astrologer believes that there are no signs of a positive outcome- yes, my impression is that we can't change that.
But we could change the circoumstances which is, I believe, pretty much what mscool is mentioning and, thus- ask more precise and less general questions- what is the obstacle, what doesn't seem promising?- we can try to change that. that's why clear questions are good! "Will I suceed in my bussines venture?"- which venture, under what circumstaces? But the Querent can always ask a question about a specific type of bussines (opening a restaurant) with his/her partner (a specific person) in a certain time frame and so on- that will allow him/her to become aware of the potential dangers and obstacles in a very specific situation. Maybe the partner is wrong! Maybe it should not be a restaurant. Maybe not this year...

Of course, that does n't mean I will stop applying more jobs just because horary said I have no chance for the next 2 months.
...
that does n't stop me from hoping it will turn out otherwise or looking for suitable guys for the next 2 years.

By all means!

I believe our wishes and desires show a part of our destiny, as much as astrology does,

I completely agree here, too. Finally, at a certain point- our approaches to life and the way we see the World around us (and, thus- they way we respond and react to it) become determined by our Astrological knowledge or, for non practicioners - by their belief in this Art, among other things.

and if astrology says it's going to be difficult, than maybe it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, maybe it just means it wasn't supposed to be easy in the first place. (That's my very capricorn self speaking).

But sometimes it will simply say- no! A" Yes, but later in life or after many difficulties!" and a "NO- no way" are two different things. I see a clear "NO" as a barren field (or no electricity). Let's say that a Querent wants to know if she'll get married for the third time. If she does not have a promise for more than 2 marriages in her Natal chart (just an example) and has already been married twice- the Horary chart will surely support her natal promise (so, basically, the chart from the example doesn't even have to a Horary chart)- it will be a NO. We can't expect the Horary to promise something that is not promised in the natal chart. But,again, that brings me back to what mscool was saying- we don't have to ask questions that way in the first place. If the querent already knows the potential candidate or is already involved in a relationship- she could simply ask a question about the quality of their relationship or about anything specific concerning it as- in the end- it is not really as though the two of them will be standing in front of the church with Her Venus and his Mars on each side, desperately trying to make them change their minds and let them go inside and get married. Something will certainly happen- maybe she'll move away, or.... But that does not mean she cannot have a lovely relationship or expect one regardless of the "final" promise. But if she does decide to ask the question that way- I'm affraid, someone will have to bear the bad news. We have to wage the situation -and the Astrologer should be of help there too. If someone asks- Will I ever be married to this man? , I believe that the Astrologer should make sure that the Querent really wants to hear that or advise him/her to concentrate on more important things. Because- maybe she won't get married but, wouldn't it be more important to know that they're yet to spend some great time together? Similarly- some marriages fall appart after only 5 months! Is a "YES, you will certainly be married at a certain point in your life" really all that matters?!
I've noticed that people tend to take things for granted in such cases (the fear or the respect fr the stars- it is out of their control and they're suddenly faced with their lives and their natal promise- something that they often know so little about!)- the charts can clearly say that a woman is being abused by her husband but, the tricky part is; they often think that, if an astrologer can see that "written in the sky", it probably means that it is meant to be that way for them and that they should not fight for their right. It is important to make sure that a person gets seful informations, I think!

For what is worth- I decide not to ask a question when I'm not sure if I'll be able to use the answer for my own good.

SunMachine wrote:I asked a horary today, about the possible success of a business venture I'm considering, and the chart didn't look promising (it looked promising to my husband, tho, who is going to be my partner). I got a bit angry because this business is something I've had in mind for quite a while.

As the business seem to look promising to your husband / coming partner in this business, the business seems to be quite good? You could analyze the corrections which are necessary to earn the success by yourself. If you read the chart really correct you should be very happy to be warned according something you were not aware of at all!

SunMachine wrote:So I just wondered...... What if we let our enthusiasm wan just because of an astrological chart? What if we give up our interests only due to an ugly horary (which can easily be misread, by the way). If you have been enthusiastic does it matter, to correct your plans in a way the stars give you advice to do? But you should proof your judgment first.

If you are not really inclined to believe in free will, are you not aware of being informed by the chart in a way which gives you a very little but very important informatiin of things which are already ready to go? If you believe in free will, then the chart is warning you and you can check your plans as advised by the chart and decide whether to gain the old enthousiasm and to go on or to stop and to be glad not having been trapped by a mistake.

And again: before all questioning check your chart and judgment first of all. And after that: Why not beeing even more enthusiastic with your business venture after having found out a possible 'defect' in your planning or strategy?

Johannes