Deb wrote:I was especially wary that this should not happen, because what might be regarded as being mereley one of thousands and thousands of cases is actually a very unique and personal case history. It is a sensitive and tragic situation that we are discussing here...

This is an imporant issue I think anyone should be aware of. Since a large part of astrology consists of applying techniques and astronomical facts there is a risk of losing out of sight that in astrology we are (almost) always dealing with humans. Likewise in medicine and law there is a risk that problem A is solved with medicine or jurisprudence B. Working like this reduces the work of doctors, lawyers and also astrologers to a mere technical exercise and the person we are dealing with to a 'thing'. This is in particular a danger involved with astrology.

I remember that 9 years ago I was discussing someones chart (with the 'owner'). She told me about some problems and when these had taken place. Looking through the ephemeris while she was telling her story I managed to find transit 'hits' close to the dates she mentioned. Yet I suddenly felt that if I then would mention those transit moments, this would devalue her experiences to a mere list of planetary data. I refrained and didn't mention those transits at the moment.

Keeping in mind that we are dealing with human beings is a difficult yet essential part of astrology.

Hi,

Somehow the text to this chart got lost, also in my files. My modem had crashed after a strong lightning. I was doing some research in Solar Returns after Aquastella's excellent timing with Solar Returns. Congratulations Aquastella!

http://bildupload.sro.at/p/325320.html

This BiWheel shows two charts arranged concentrically. The inner wheel is Deb's Mystery Chart, the outer wheel shows the Solar Return (precession corrected, for the birthplace) for the year of the tragic disappearance and most probably death of the native.

I think the chart is quite self-explanatory. For those not familiar with BiWheels: the Asc-Desc axis of the return chart touches the critical MC-IC axis of the natal chart, and the Solar Return MC is right on the natal Sun where Saturn moved at the time of the accident.

Hope this helps
Ren?

P.S. I am in the midst of a small research on Solar Returns. For 10 persons who have already died, I compare SRs in various ways:
- tropical and precession-corrected
- birthplace and relocated
- Moon's aspects
- angles conjunct angles
and looking for the best 'fit'.
When the study is completed I will come back in a separate thread.

3D,

Would you mind telling us what this link leads to ? Sorry but I do not like surprises.

Thank you

Matt

matt23z wrote:3D,

Would you mind telling us what this link leads to ? Sorry but I do not like surprises.

It looks like a biwheel

margherita

It looks like a biwheel

It is a biwheel indeed:

inner wheel : mystery natal chart.
outer wheel : 2001 precessed solar return for birthplace.

That is to show how much clearer the warning is in the precessed solar return than in the non-precessed one, in mystery chart case.

Fact or...coincidence?

Hrmmm..Fiction ?

What is the logic?

Having an Msc. in Aerospace engineering and years of experience as a scientific software developer with natal Saturn in the 9th, I cannot bring myself to admit that astrology is anything other than a medieval superstition. Since when is medieval superstition supposed to be logical?

Steven and Aqua Stella,

between the two of you -Space,Land and Ocean have all been covered,but ,can someone explain the explanation .Something like so- http://www.higgo.com/quantum/laymans.htm

The problem is not with any hypothesis but its reproducibility and making it very predictable.


PD

Hi Steven

You wrote :

Isn't that a redundancy to use a tropical zodiac and then precess the SR? What is the logic?

As you know, the tropical zodiac moves following the earth axis. This means that when you compare the natal chart with the return chart, both charts are not drawn in the same zodiac.

I think the natal positions are out of time and so they cannot follow the precession movement. By correcting the precession, one takes this in account. It does not mean you have to use a sidereal zodiac.

Regards

Martine wrote:Hi Steven

You wrote :

Isn't that a redundancy to use a tropical zodiac and then precess the SR? What is the logic?

As you know, the tropical zodiac moves following the earth axis. This means that when you compare the natal chart with the return chart, both charts are not drawn in the same zodiac.

I think the natal positions are out of time and so they cannot follow the precession movement. By correcting the precession, one takes this in account. It does not mean you have to use a sidereal zodiac.

Regards

When one precession-corrects one is saying that for example a transit position of Mars 1 Can is not actually 1 Can, it's actually maybe 28 Gem (as a theoretical example, but could be real in a mundane chart). By saying that one is also invalidating the zodiac one is using.

Hi Steven

I have no problem to represent a precession-corrected Solar Return in the Tropical Zodiac. If you convert it into the Siderial Zodiac, it?s (well, almost) exactly the same as the true Siderial Return. The only requirement is that we use the same reference frame for the charts we compare. Spica e.g. is Spica and it is where it is, no matter if we say it?s at 0? Libra or at 24? Libra.

The fundamental question for me is ? and that?s the subject of my small study with 10 cases ? is how we ?remember? the Solar Return. When is the Sun at the same position as it was when we were born? What is that same position? Is it the distance of the natal Sun from the Vernal Point (tropical return) or the position vis-?-vis the celestial background (sidereal / precession-corrected return)?

Ren?

CJ wrote :

When one precession-corrects one is saying that for example a transit position of Mars 1 Can is not actually 1 Can, it's actually maybe 28 Gem (as a theoretical example, but could be real in a mundane chart). By saying that one is also invalidating the zodiac one is using.

When correcting the precession, it is not necessary to take the transiting planet back in the zodiac. You can take the natal planet or point forward in the zodiac. Supposing the natal point is 28 Gem and the precession is 3? (for a mundane chart), you can bring the natal point to 1 Can, but keeping in mind that it was in Gem. This way, you do not change the quality of the transiting planet.

I am unfortunanetly too late on the scene to participate in this interesting, yet tragic exercise involving the death and disappearence of this young man. As a latecomer I am impressed with the way the team of astrologers contributed to solve the riddle and also that AquaStella picked the right time. Very impressive. With the result being known I immediately disqualify myself from the contest, but from the part of sharing my 'take' on astrology I would like to contribute with what may be derived from the Age Point technique, which is the technique I that have been patiently developing and practicing for the last 23 years.


The Time of Greatest Danger ? according to the Age Point method.

The Age Point is directed through the sign of Sagittarius from the age of 33 ? years and until the age of 38 ?. This is the first warning of the period of greatest danger. Jupiter is in his detriment and combust the Sun on the cusp of the 12th house. The native is in this manner overpowered and a victim of circumstance within this period. It is not a good sign. Jupiter?s quality is further deprived by his disposition of the Moon?s South node in Sagittarius. The Age Point entering the sign of the South Node is a further warning of fatality. Usually this point indicates a ditch, depression, vacuum or dump in the road. As circumstances would have there was actually an obstacle in the road involved but more in terms of a ramp ? which is more within the natural significations of the sign Sagittarius. The South node also indicates narrow passages.

There are many obstacles as the Age Point is directed though the sign of Sagittarius. First there is the 3month passage where the AP forms a T-square to the Saturn/Mars opposition from the age of 35 yrs and 5 months (AP 18SG28 square Mars) until 35 yrs and 8 months (AP 16SG58 square Saturn). This coincides with the dates of November 2000 through to February 2001. Then the AP reaches the Moon?s South Node at 36 years and 4 months. This is in September 2001. Both these periods portray danger and hazard that lead up to the moment of fatality.

The accident is noted on April 23. 2002. At this time the native is 36 years and 10 months. The Age Point is 9SG40. This is exactly opposite the detrimented, combust and debilitated dispositor of Sagittarius, Jupiter. Jupiter casts his square to Uranus, co-ruler of the 8th house. More importantly Jupiter is on the contrantiscia of the 7th. The cusp of the 7th casts its antiscia to 9SG02!

The Capricorn 7th is the reptile ?croc? counterpart. The Age Point in Sagittarius (travel, horses, motorbikes) opposing its dispositor, Jupiter, in Gemini (two on a bike) combust and on the cusp of the 12th (victimized, force major, large animals) and joining to the antiscia of the Capricorn 7th (the adversary, opponent and predator).

All the hard aspects that the Age Point makes as it is directed through the sign of Sagittarius (Mars, Saturn, South Node, Pluto, Uranus and debilitated Jupiter) add up the total picture, but the tension was maximized and the accident occurred as the Age Point reached the opposition of the key-planet dispositor Jupiter on the antiscia of the Capricorn 7th.

I checked with the Solar Return provided for the 36th birthday of this unfortunate young man. Moving the Ascendant clockwise with the rate of one degree per day, the Year Age Point (YAP) does on April 23 reach 9 Pisces. The Jupitarian vulnerability is the same and the YAP is in an exact square with the AP at 9SG.