I do feel that some times people can be fatalistic when it comes to their charts and transits. I would like to know how people make bad aspects positive. I don't what to be Neptunian and gloss over warnings or challenges but on the other hand we are all at one time or another going to go through bad transits. For example, taking the saturn -urnaus opposition which is killing many of us - what is positive about that? Or is it that we are all just afraid of "forced" growth. Are we fated or can we make educated choices?

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I don't know about making negative traits of a chart positive. Would that mean that by the same atitude you can make something positive entirely negative? Do you feel that a good second house can give you a lesson because you never had to worry about it?

I know what's good in my chart: I have a good enough 2nd (not perfect, good enough, I do not lose nights worrying about money). I have a good 4th (my family and I argue a lot, but it's a normal family, we love and care for each other). I have a decent 9, Jupiter in Sagitarius posited in the 9th sign is a bless. Although I do not value my 11th, my 11th value myself, which translates as I do not give a damn about my friends, but I was never short on them, and for a bizarre reason they enjoy myself.

Now, about bad things: we tend to focus onto our problems, cause our problems is what we have to solve, otherwise they would not be problems. And the only way to solve problems is to make they not be problems anymore. The only lesson I have learned is that problems are seldom entirely solved, they are mitigated with time, if anything (that's when they do not turn out to become worse). We carry scars of what we face and suffer for all of our lives.. My 6th, 8th and 12th house gives me some degree of pain, and sometimes it seems to be for free. The only lesson I take out of it is that human being can be really rotten quite often. And my 7th house is so problematic that I can consider it non-functional. Life can be unfair sometimes, and worse yet, it seems not to be our place to question it, for we are very small little creatures facing the great scheme of things. I could moan all day about this (and sometimes I do) but I try not to, and often there are more importants things to do.

So no, I do not believe you can turn something negative into something positive. But you can always have the good spirit to take it and endure, and after some time, even have a laugh out of it. Some do not get the chance to do even that, for their problems amount to the unbearable. Now, who can say why that is? Not I, for sure, nor anyone that I know of.

Tom wrote:From here there are two choices. One suggested by Robert Hand is to learn how the planet "acts" in the opposite sign, in this case, Moon in Cancer. Then act like that. In other words use your free will to turn things around. No, it's not easy, but it isn't impossible either. Do the Same with Saturn. Recognize what it is, and then implement what could be.

Tom

Yesterday I started writing a post in this topic and then someone refreshed the page while I was away and it all got lost (that is why a PC should only be used by ONE PERSON- it' should be personal, by default).

In the mean time, Tom basically said everything I wanted to (only in better words)!

As for the quoted paragraph- I know one Astrologer who does that all the time- that is why people go to see him in the first place. Only I forgot the term that he uses for this (switching, replacing...focus, energy...), anyway- when he sniffs a stressful or even a beneficial progressed or transitional aspect, he literally offers a range of possible reactions in the life of the Native and asks him/her to decide how they'd like to use the promised energy. I lack on good examples which is a shame as i've spent quite some time talking to him about this "system" but I was just a beginner at the time and pretty much suffocating in examples and facts. But I do that he once advised one of his clients to break a very firm and stabile business partnership in order to save his marriage as the 7th ruler was severely attacked at the time. (Don't know how the story ends, thugh!).
He'd also often suggest something very similar to what Tom is mentioning (or maybe exactly the same thing) and that is; when there's a detrimental planet in a chart, the Astrologer should introduce and explain the "power" or potential to act of that planet when placed inside its own rulership (where it feels best) and suggest the client to try and build or strengthen his capacities by trying to act as though his/her planet is well placed. In order to support that process and make it easier- he'd advise the client to drain the energy and symbolics from the most potent place in the chart- the Almuten. So, basically, he'd suggest the client to strengthen his detrimental Moon by helping him visualise as to what it is that he needs to achieve and would, at the same time- reveal him the secret weapons "hidden" in his (example) powerful Mars ; a well placed (and strongest) planet is a good and reliable ally and the Native would be introduced into how placement of that planet could help (taking into consideration; its placement, the house cusps it rules and so on).

(See, Tom's explanation is much more comprehensible! )))

Let's take a gruesome one: Saturn in Cancer (detriment) opposing (hard aspect) Moon in Capricorn (detriment)

Hey, I have this one! Partile and angular, besides everything!

Should I be or ?



I think that we can usually condense all the approaches of "how to survive bad things in astrology" to 5 schools.

1 - Magic. Magical astrology, talismans, mantras, charity. Very used in hindu astrology to avoid things. Very useful. People with huge afflictions can overcome them sometimes with little effort.

2- Stoicism. Mr Dykes could tell you it in his course much better than me about the concept of happiness of ancient Stoics. But I believe that we, in our society of "You can have everything if you wish for", and MTV?s "Sweet Sixteen", should all be a little more stoic and understand that life is not easy but we can live with it.

3 - It is all life lessons - new age folk love this. Everything is for the better. If you don?t have money for eating, at least you are getting important life lessons.

4 - Life Theater - Robert Hand has a strange theory that if you "act" the aspect or planet, it will work in a good way. He gives an example of an actress who "had all the signs of alcoholism" and instead of being alcoholic, she played one on theater. I would ask why so many actor seem to have so awful lives, but that?s me. John Frawley said something similar that if someone didn?t played the aspect "in a good way", life would make things happen by itself, usually in a crappy way.

5 - Insurance planning - if you see a difficult aspect on your progressed MC make an unemployment insurance! Steven told us about when he observed that he could have health troubles and insured his house, etc, avoiding most of the problems that came after. Same school of thought that we ask our querents in horary astrology: be responsible, be sensible. As in our Mystery Chart of Death that Deb gave us, if the astrologer see problems with crocodiles, don?t go do extreme sports in a distant river!

I thought you said you were gonna use it to get fat and blame it on your past life.

Hey - it could kinda work wih a twisty moon there

Seriously, I would go with either magic or insurance, with some stoicism thrown in. And sometimes there's not a whole lot you can do.

I thought you said you were gonna use it to get fat and blame it on your past life.

the only reason one should study astrology is to bitch about one?s chart

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So how would you go about say, curing a rare genetic illness, or having a bunch of people you love murdered? Or any number of the other disasters that befall humanity?

Broken rule, but that's some of what's happened to me. And I didn't have the bad luck to be born in Darfur or Afghanistan or any number of other really nasty spots. LOTS of people did. I don't think you can say that those folks are somehow less deserving of decent lives, or too stupid to work it out.

Sometimes things are just bad. Sometimes collective destiny (national, for instance) is going to over-rule your natal chart. And if there's anything you can do about that stuff, I don't know what it is.

I agree with you Olivia. It sounds like you?ve had some difficult experiences and I?m sorry to hear that. I don?t know anyone who hasn?t, at some time or other (some more than others) been faced with something unbearably difficult or sad. So my view is, for all the magical or creative self-empowerment systems, the only attitude that really works is the stoic one ? to develop acceptance and forbearance; and hopefully with a jovial outlook. According to Ptolemy, the point of foreknowledge is so that we can brace ourselves physically and prepare ourselves emotionally. And Valens is very clear that we can?t use prayers or meditation techniques to change what is already predetermined.

Yuzuru gave a very good outline of the main approaches, but it all seems to boil down to two: free will and magic, or predetermination and endurance.
If we use astrological magic, then we assume the power to change a difficult circumstance, or deflect it, so that it doesn?t fully manifest. Endurance assumes very little power to change the physical circumstances of our lives, but by strengthening our core we weather the shocks and hardships better. In my experience, that?s the only approach that can be astrologically recommended.

To give a personal example, when this recession started I tried to warn all my (now grown up) children about the need to realise that a recession was coming, and that they had to be prepared to lose jobs, flats, and change their social habits ? whatever was necessary, because it was important to just be healthy and to survive this as best they could ? because worldwide recession drives many people to the brink; some to suicide. It occurred to me that young adults of their generation are not emotionally prepared because they?ve grown up in two decades of expansion and living on credit. The ?gloomy? advice I gave was this: ?things are going to be very difficult indeed; expect that to be the case and get prepared for it?. As a mother I would never dream of suggesting that a recession is on its way, so wear a talisman to make sure that it doesn?t effect you personally. And use the power of your positive thinking too, because you really can have that new Ferrari if you truly focus your ?self? on it. If I wouldn?t give that advice as a mother, then why would I conceive of it as an astrologer?

I quite like astrological magic, but ultimately I think it is a creative self-indulgence, which can become destructive if taken too seriously. I?ve also come to see most ?self-help? books as being ?how to become even more selfish? books. They feed the expectation that one person can have a more fulfilling life by visualisation of the positive. But no matter what self-affirmation techniques is used, no matter what herbal remedy is applied, if a man suffers from male-pattern baldness then a Saturn transit will trigger that and hair loss will occur. That?s a typically Saturn-opp-Uranus example. I don?t think we can change what is going to happen, we can only use it to help identify crisis points when developing strategies for coping; and for learning to understand our values, and to put one priority in place with another. Probably all strategies are as good as each other, as long as they accept the likelihood of inevitability, don?t propose magical ?avoidance? tactics, and don?t suggest that every negative thing can be experienced as a positive.

Olivia wrote: ...that's some of what's happened to me. And I didn't have the bad luck to be born in Darfur or Afghanistan or any number of other really nasty spots. LOTS

Similarly, I've met a significant number o people born in "critical" zones who did have a promise for "disasters" and who have moved away - they had to experience the nastiness of their aspects in a bit different way- but they did meet their promise.

STILL ...

Broken rule, but that's some of what's

I dont even think it's a broken rule. At a certain point we need to come to terms with the fact that our "destiny" is determined by our personality, approaches and strength as well- not every material will crash under the same weight. People who have been through difficult things in life usually find conversations with optimistic survivors more comforting and therapeutic than even rceiving a professional help; but what does that mean- that among 100 people who have all survived the same disaster, there will always be a few of them who will actually survive, get back on their feet and help the others to do it as well. (think breast cancer survivors and their efforts, raped women volunteering in women's shelters etc.).

At the same time, we can find people who have been thorough situations that,in other people's occasionally selfish or non-realistic vision, might seem less stressful -these people often suffer just as much. I think I've mentioned this just the other day somewhere else on Forum but, the psychiatrists often say: "loosing a member of a close family is no worse than losing a dog for some people- such people still have something in common and it's their pain !!" From Astrological perspective, determining the "strength" and soft spots can be of great help in order to prepare a person for the upcoming events or whatever it is that they're about to experience. And, if someone can indeed provide them with a good advise on how to re- direct that energy and focus it onto something that will cause less damage on their personalities and mental state- I have no problem with calling that person a magician. But, in addition to the "shrink's advice"- those experiences do not necessarily need to look harmful in terms of wars, murders or natural disasters; for one person the end of marriage is the end of a cycle (as stressful as it usually is) but for another it can mean the end of life (here I'm not talking only about suicides here, of course!).

Having said that- I'm not sure if I can teach myself to be more stoic than i naturally am because, in the end- we all need to survive! But, the truth is- my Saturn has made me more stoic than average "by default"! I've got Mars/Saturn square from 10th to 1st with Saturn inside the 1st; my best friend has got the reversed situation- last year, while going through an extremely hard period mainly caused by the transits and progressions triggering that aspect, my friend would on occasions have to come to literally rescue me from the outside influences. The very next day, I'd be comforting her and making sure not only that she doesn't lose her mind over "minor" stresses but also that she is ok considering MY situation and all the things she had seen the previous day. My Saturn inside the first has given me more "strength" that, due to the square, I've unfortunately had to use on quite a few occasions. It's one of those things when they tell you that 99% of people would have crushed long time ago and still you can't explain as to- how come you're still stabile. I'm not even sure what we can suggest in similar situations considering that sometimes, the things happen naturally (depending upom the the strength and durability of the "material" we are made of). At the same time- I've given up trying to make my mother look at the bright side or occupy her thought with light, happy pictures (the half empty/half full glass story)- she simply seems to be completely incapable of forcing herself to think positively and so i usually suggest her to go to see Borat and let him make her laugh- that's the only possible Astrological advice for her most of the times. (That, and a suggestion to sit in the middle of the row so that she could not leave the cinema after only 15 min of fun as she often does! ).

To give a personal example, when this recession started I tried to warn all my (now grown up) children about the need to realise that a recession was coming, and that they had to be prepared to lose jobs, flats, and change their social habits ?

Unfortunately, i had to make my parents realise that! Pretty unsuccessfully too!

But, that said, I remembered an example of a person who is a "brilliant mind" when it comes to "dancing with the destiny" and constantly changing steps- i'm surprised I didn't think of him while writing my first answer. Apparently- some people simply know how to do this! This man, who's chart I've had for the past 5 years and whom I often mention as an example for all sorts of things is someone we could call a mobster, a fraud or simply a business man (is there a difference nowadays!? ) but he is a pure example of a survivor and of a person who can turn the things into his own advantage simply by listening to what his chart has got to say (or maybe it only seems like that to me but I am fascinated by him, I admit that!).

This is how he "operates"- let's just say that he wants to open a new firm and the recession is on its way; he is entirely dedicated, not only to his wish to constantly expand his fortune, but also to the idea that he can not be ruined and so- he decides to enter a huge investment regardless of the situation. I tell him that his 12th is severely attacked in his SR chart and that some of the aspects from his Natal chart that often promise imprisonment are triggered in the current period as well; we examine the event chart for the planned final meeting with his future partners and I conclude that I don't like the situaton at all; The authorities are not very keen on him, he's got a reputation of a smuggler (big one) and now he is planning on starting another business all wrapped up in the veil of secrecy.
He instantly takes out the design of his new firm logo from his pocket, calls the designer and tells him to change the name of the firm- instead of the wrod "sell" he puts the word "cell" and says-ok, we're done with the jail cell promise, what else should I take care of?
After listening to all I have got to say, he goes home and starts informing me about the development of the situation, occasionally asking for some event chart readings and his SR "updates" as he calls them. Within the next few years;each time he asks for an advise- if I say that he should be extremely cautious as he just might end up serving a life sentence and be careful when it comes to signing contracts or signing papers in general- he usually simply asks "Why?". When I say that I don't like the shape of his Mercury and his 12th - he asks- "What is Mercury?" (or what else cn Mercury be?) and, before you know it, his partner formally becomes the president of the firm, signs all the papers for him ( for big money) and accepts to be imprisoned in case they get caught (which, in the end, did happen)! When I say - But, you did not and can not lend your Mercury to him- you should still be cautious, he simply causes a minor traffic accident, or intentionally "forgets" to pay an important bill or even "helps" himself to end up in a police station under suspicion of comitting some "minor" crime. Believe me- I have never advised him to do any of these things - the man simply learns what Mercury symbolises and decides what he wants to do with him! I'm the one who is learning from him! And, at the same time- his Astrological knowledge is rapidly growing.
He has changed his surname twice; he has 14 opened fake firms (so called- fantoms) under different names; he once payed a journalist to publish a photo of him and one very beautiful woman in the local newspaper to make his own wife furious BUT - only to detract her attention from his existing extramarital affair (because he knew that it wouldn't take him more than 15 min to set enough evidences that the woman from the picture was not his mistress and, once his wife is convinced that he is not having an affair with the woman from the picture, she will stop asking questions about the affairs in general). An absolutely amazing personality! He has actually spent the last 10 or 15 years "balancing" on the 12th (and occasions 8th) cusp, literally, and has survived. But, after seeing his face in the pictures of every prominent politician's wedding or family celebration, I'm starting to think that, most of them do exactly the same thing- consciously or not, turn the things into their own advantage. Many prominent politicians have got a very strong 12th house.
BUT- this all brings me back to where i basically started from; this man does all this naturally - I don't know many people whould so easily decide to jump into the sea of grey economy just to escape the paws of recession. And I know very few of them who 'd actually learn to swim in it. The "pragmatism" and the "strength" of this man are also written in his Natal promise. He is a Phoenix!