The 8th house is so difficult to deal with, though. I had a client who was suffering from Cancer. The opening phrase of the consulting doctor was "Only 30% survive, you know". The woman had never asked. Imagine the trauma. It proved that the doctor had got his diagnose wrong anyhow, and the Cancer was not terminal. She was cured and little me (from an astrological perspective) was correct in my analysis and guiding her through the situation.

Another woman consulted a astrologer of a certain fame but mixed repute at a fair. Not quite knowing what to expect, his opening words were "At the age of 82, you will die!" The woman was absolutely shocked!! And so am I!! I have many examples of practitioners attempting to take control of other people for very poor causes. How can people do that??! What is wrong with them?

Personally I lean much more in direction of the doctrine of Geoffry Cornelius which states that 'Fate can be traded'. This is what I believe to be one of the most important facets of astrology. However, during this discussion I find it interesting to discover that people have different opinions on the 8th house from their school, background and learning. Maybe this is a demonstration of astrological dialects.

It is not the first time that we have a disagreement over what house rules what. Kirk reminds us that it was called the idle house.When the Sun is here it is that time after lunch when we do not feel like doing any work.

Every chart has an eighth house but life is not all suffering. Perhaps we could could use the time to reflect on our own good fortune.

Clearly from you and Deb have written, astrological knowledge is not much use if the astrologer lacks the wisdom and compassion to administer it. I suppose that can only be gained from experience.

Matt

I was wondering about the traditional co-significators for the 8th house?

The planet Saturn and the sign of Scorpio. I appreciate these are primarily used in regards medical astrology. Still it does give some other symbolism to contemplate regarding traditional attitudes to this house.

Its also notable no planet joys in this house.

However, I seem to recall a few references to the waxing Moon being ok here. Cant find where I saw that at present. It was either Firmicus or Paulus. What is that about? Is it just that the beneficial nature of the waxing phase helps to overcome the negative associations of this house?

Mark

Hi Mark,

Well, now I know you skip over my posts! I talked about Saturn, if perhaps in a free-wheeling sort of way. I've found that the planetary cosignificators are very much linked to the house meanings. For example, the Moon is the cosignificator for the 7th house, and the 7th has traditional ties to women. The 7th also is connected with death and entrance into the underworld, as is the feminine.

*************************************************

Some more scraps of 8th house thoughts I had lying around ?

Another suggestion that the 8th house is equally a psychological house: 'Facing death'. Facing our own, as through a medical diagnosis, or the death of someone else close to us. More of that 8th house idleness, standstill. More of that 8th house fear ? the fear that comes from looking at death rather than actual death itself. By extension, the fear of endings, limits, and being denied. Since it's unlikely that we fear death once we're dead, there's an element of acquiring and growing our fear by looking into the future.

Hi Kirk,

Well, now I know you skip over my posts! I talked about Saturn, if perhaps in a free-wheeling sort of way.

Indeed you did. Sorry about that!

Saturn is the traditional (so-called Chaldean?) cosignificator of the 8th, so there's a good indication of heaviness

I'm just never sure if these have much application outside medical astrology. The co-significator signs (in this instance Scorpio)are certainly one of the origins for the the modern simplified link between planets/houses/signs. I have noticed references going back to the late middle ages to the co-significator planets and signs. Just how old are these associations with the signs/planets?

The 7th also is connected with death and entrance into the underworld

I see what you mean. Although Firmicus describes the 8th house that way.

Mark

In horary, we usually only use the 8th house for fears, death and mainly money.

Ascendant ruler in the 8th, querent is "in fear". Death horaries is obvious, but to tell the true, I have only seen horaries questioning about someone else?s death.

In natal astrology my personal observation is that people with stellium in the 8th usually have people around them dying like flies. Things like "my husband and my father died in the same day" are not that uncommon with them.

When the person himself dies, sometimes the ruler of the 8th seems completely idle.

I'm just never sure if these have much application outside medical astrology.

On page 52 of CA Lilly writes concerning the 3rd house:

It has Cosignificators, of the Signs Gemini, of the Planets Mars; which is one reason why Mars in this house, unless joined with Saturn is not very unfortunate.

That looks like a pretty good indication that he's thinking beyond medical astrology.

Saturn is a tricky one. He gets the 1st house of life and vitality, which shows that he's not all that bad as an indicator of incarnation into matter, but then he shows his nasty side in the averse 8th of fear and nay-saying.

Hi Kirk,

That looks like a pretty good indication that he's thinking beyond medical astrology.

I haven't checked out that extract from CA yet so I cannot comment if you are right or not. This is a subject I have given hardly any attention to before. It is intriguing.

For the moment I simply offer this quote from Deb's Horary course here on skyscript on planetary and sign co-significators:

The use of planets and signs as co-significators for houses is not used in horary judgements; here Lilly is describing a correspondence that has relevance only for medical rulerships. The scheme is based upon the Chaldean order of the planets ? Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon ? in which Saturn is recognised as the first planet because it is the outermost visible planet. The rest of the planets follow suit according to their proximity to the Earth. This Chaldean order forms the basis of many planetary schemes as you will find as you work through the course.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1dc.html

Incidentally, it has belatedly occured to me that a waxing Moon in the 8th would in most cases ( assuming Sun was not in zodiacal degrees behind it in the 7th or 8th) be the sect light hence its increased power. I assume it would need to be free of the Sun's beams (15 degrees) or malefics for this more positive interpretation to apply.

Mark

Deb wrote (without emphasis in bold letters ):

The use of planets and signs as co-significators for houses is not used in horary judgements; here Lilly is describing a correspondence that has relevance only for medical rulerships.

Maybe the planets aren't actively used in horary judgments, but that doesn't address the issue of how they seem to be contained within the traditional meanings of the houses. Some examples:

2nd: Jupiter and wealth.
4th: Sun and father, patriarchal heritage.
7th: Moon and women (Traditionally, the woman in a marriage chart).
8th: Saturn and death/fear.
9th: Jupiter and religion, scholars/students.
10th: Mars and taking action in the world (Cutting out our piece of the world with the sword of Mars).
11th: Sun and hopes, wishes (Sun is tied to the forward-looking spirit).
12th: Venus and . . . . . . . Becoming undone by Delilah?
[BTW, the name Samson is derived from the word for sun. So the Sun rises in the east and soon meets its Delilah? Maybe I should get over my aversion to the Bible and see what else is in there.]

Just thought of another one.
3rd: Mars and its ancient signification of brothers.

Anyone feel like starting a new thread about the planetary cosignificators?

Today's client was that of an accountant. Don't get me wrong but the chart stinked like hell. Most of us would run for safety, yet this guy would stick is spoon and find a decent living in matters that everyone else seems to flee to avoid.

Anything to do with accountancies and taxes is a purgatory zone for the Average Joe. To describe the span of his personality I suggested he could alternatively chosen an occupation as an undertaker, an archaeologist (someone who brushes he dust off the dead) or someone who fought vermin, pests, or that he sold caustic soda, or oil and paints to fight off attacks upon buildings and woodwork by weather and wear.

Yes, his chart smacks of both the 8th, 4th and 6th houses, together with Capricorn and Scorpio.

Confronted with the directions of both Saturn and Pluto for 2010, I must admit I was unsure weather the warn the client of a dreary year up ahead or a good year for business.

Personally, I find the 8th house and exciting house and a challenge. I feel that if fate 'can' be traded, the 8th house is a good starting point. Combinations between the 8th house and other more 'fortunate' houses (traditionally) tend to provide meanings that are less dire than if the 8th house is combined with other houses more likely to put the native 'at a loss'.

So if some houses are likely to put the native 'more at a loss' than others, what is this about and can fate be traded?

Anyone feel like starting a new thread about the planetary cosignificators?

I nominate you!

I would be interested in getting to the historical root of these associations. I haven't spotted reference in a hellenistic text..yet. At the moment all I have is questions not answers. I was looking at Bonatti last night but couldn't see reference to the co-significators in his description of the houses.

Personally, I find the 8th house and exciting house and a challenge. I feel that if fate 'can' be traded, the 8th house is a good starting point. Combinations between the 8th house and other more 'fortunate' houses (traditionally) tend to provide meanings that are less dire than if the 8th house is combined with other houses more likely to put the native 'at a loss'.

That makes sense. Plus it is still a succedent house although paradoxically the 'Idle place' due to its lack of connection with the ASC.

Going back to your earlier basic point:

Personally I lean much more in direction of the doctrine of Geoffry Cornelius which states that 'Fate can be traded'. This is what I believe to be one of the most important facets of astrology.

What exactly does that mean? Do you mean we can exercise free will to overcome such indicators or change the way the symbolism is expressed? Or are you talking about the interaction of house rulers as above mofifying the impact. Is this idea something Cornelius mentions in his book 'The Moment of Astrology? If so I will check it out.

Thanks

Mark

Andrew said:
Personally I lean much more in direction of the doctrine of Geoffry Cornelius which states that 'Fate can be traded'. This is what I believe to be one of the most important facets of astrology.

Mark asked:
What exactly does that mean? Do you mean we can exercise free will to overcome such indicators or change the way the symbolism is expressed? Or are you talking about the interaction of house rulers as above mofifying the impact.

In my mind astrology is like a game of chess. The framework is set and each piece may be moved according to certain rules within this framework. Now it it perfectly possible to play this game like a sleepwalker, but few moves will be required before the game is lost and you end up 'Checkmate'. However, by applying a certain awareness and forsight before each move it is possible to lift the quality of the game. The rules do not change but the end result is lifted to a different level. That is what I mean by 'trading fates'.