yuzuru wrote:I have some horaries, where, for instance, querent is in the sign of detriment of the job, and querent was keen to the job, and really didn?t know that much about it to hate it in the first place.

I would read this as the querent in incompetent in regards to the job. They lack the skills, qualifications, temperament etc to carry out the job effectively. They just don't know it yet! Admittedly, the money example is a bit harder to fathom! Querent in detriment of the money..getting the money won't do them any good? They spend it on a drinking binge? Or by pursuing a client, for example, for an unpaid invoice gets them a reputation for being difficult or litigious which affects their business in the long term? Even a spiritual lesson that money isn't everything might fit. Without seeing the charts it is all surmise, but I hope those scenarios fit.

I've opened this thread to loads of replies and lots of information which is slowly sinking in. Thank you all very much. To be honest, I took the wrong significator for the er, pseudo chart, but it's a happy coincidence in the end as I have certainly learnt a lot and thank everyone for their generosity in sharing their knowledge freely.

There is another chart which springs to mind. It is a question which may not be suitable for horary... Was I molested as a child? Leo rises and sag is on the 5th house cusp. Would this be a suitable horary and are these the right significators? I would also look at 7th to see if there was an actual perpetrator. I am asking for permission to post the chart so if forum members are in accordance hopefully I can post it later.
Please let me know if you would like to see this chart or if you feel that this an issue/horary best left alone.

Thank you all once again.

PallasAthene wrote:Was I molested as a child? Please let me know if you would like to see this chart or if you feel that this an issue/horary best left alone.

Hi, PallasAthene!

I can only give you my personal opinion- I don't think that questions and issues of that kind are ever best left alone and, for what is worth, I believe that Astrology or any other virtue (including psychiatry, of course) are actually noble for being able to help people find out about such things and face them as it is the most important step in the process of repairing the damage caused by traumatic experiences. Also, studying similar charts is of all the importance as, more often than not- people decide to pay for Astrological help and answers regarding important, stressful and "big" things and Astrologers are put into situations that they would hardly want to be involved in on a personal level. So, naturally- I myself am often interested in seeing a chart of a molested woman, for example, just to gain a better insight and try to recognise the patterns!

But, I would also say that such questions and situations in general require an extreme caution - the Astrologer should not make a mistake there. He/she should not make mistakes in general but, we do have to face the fact that not all mistakes are equally dangerous (or maybe I'm wrong!). Everyone is uncomfortable talking about these things -a conversation with a molested person is never pleasant ! But people rarely go to see an Astrologer (or a doctor, or a lawyer...) for pleasure and an every Astrologer must be prepaired to answer such questions. And, so, from that standpoint- the experience and example charts are always more than welcome.

But the approach must be thorough and prepared in advance IMO! Therefore- I believe that more than just a Horary chart should be used in this inquiry! Natal chart will surely provide a great amount of informations as I can't really imagine a chart of a molested person where an evidence or, in better words, a promise for something of the kind would be missing. By using the system of turned/derived houses, I'm pretty sure the attacker can be easily identified as well. The Natal figure should be compared to progressions or any other predictive method that the Astrologer decides to use or usually does use! Also, such traumas usually cause psychological deformations or temporary or permanent disorders that require medical help and, thus, asking about something like this often involves health/medical issues!
I may sound very sceptical but I would certainly extend such a search beyond Horary astrology! Also, I would want to be sure that the question is sincere and reasonable!

Regards,

aglaya!

L1 and L5 are in each others detriment indicating a difficult childhood. L5 is Rx and conj 7th cusp, so childhood issues returning and in connection with "another". L7 is combust saturn. The querent is uncertain if she has deampt this or there is a real memory that has been surpressed. The combustion seems to reflect this "invisibility", lack of awareness.
I cannot go beyond this very brief appraisal but the chart is in the public domain on another very well known forum. It seems to reflect a true concern.

I totally agree that a natal reading would be be appropriate in this instance and with all the other points in your post.

I brought it up because the mutual detriment of L1 and L5 seem to be appropriate for the thread and may, upon further thorough investigation, indicate a yes answer to the question.

My question in this area is specifically about something like Venus sextile Mars in Virgo, obviously Venus is in Fall in Virgo but it also rules Virgo by triplicity in a day chart, so how does that play into it? There are a few other examples like this (Mars in Fall in Cancer for example) . Any thoughts?

So we are looking at what mars think of venus..how mars receives venus. Triplicity offers the generosity mentioned above, a general compatibility, friendly feelings. But fall would indicate, say, a lack of trust, or something that mars doesn't like.. buck teeth maybe, or an annoying habit.

Now if venus is in scorpio, that lack of trust would be justified since venus is in detriment here. If she were in her own terms, this would be reduced somewhat. Honourable in character but hindered by circumstances, for example.

They are in mutual reception by triplicity so they want to be helpful to each other..but in fall and detriment, they simply do not have the means to help each other. I think Frawley says something like.. I ask my friend to lend me ?10, and he would if he had it, but he's broke too, even worse than me.

If venus were in cancer and in own terms, she would lend lend me the whole ?10. But with mars in her fall.. maybe I wouldn't pay it back. If she were peregrine, I'm not sure! Maybe she'd lend me ?5. Or maybe she still doesn't have the resources to help me. Or she meant to bring the money but forgot her purse and I ended up buying the drinks on my credit card. Either way, I'd be annoyed at not getting the whole amount, since I'm in her fall.

Hope that helps, and I've got it right.

Mars in cancer... a bad mars? Strong AND in fall, so able to exert more malefic power than usual? The liar who won't admit the truth, stubournly sticks to their story, because they don't believe they've done anything wrong? There is a sense of power which is underhand, misused or not directed in an honourable, correct manner.

Mars in detriment in libra would be a bad mars also, but he can't act, he has no strength. So his misdeeds are negligent rather than willful as in cancer. Passive aggressive type of behaviour.

PallasAthene wrote:Mars in cancer... a bad mars? Strong AND in fall, so able to exert more malefic power than usual? The liar who won't admit the truth, stubournly sticks to their story, because they don't believe they've done anything wrong? There is a sense of power which is underhand, misused or not directed in an honourable, correct manner.

Mars in detriment in Libra would be a bad mars also, but he can't act, he has no strength. So his misdeeds are negligent rather than willful as in cancer. Passive aggressive type of behaviour.

Are you talking about such placement in general- including Natal astrology? (I'm mainly asking because of the bolded part)?
If so- be careful because it's never that black&white- mars rules the triplicities in Cancer! There's a very interesting thread about the placement of Mars inside Cancer- in the sign of its fall yet essentially dignified by triplicity. It is in Traditional techniques section, I believe. I've even made a short list of some of the world's most famous and successful athletes with Mars placed inside Cancer in their Natal charts and posted it there- it's quite fascinating too!

No, I was trying illustrate how I understand it in horary. I haven't progressed to natal yet. If its a bad example ignore it! It's strong but fallen.. how do you describe or explain that? Could also be directed at the self, not outwards. Depends on the whole chart of course, it was just an illustration.

Sounds like a good thread, I'll have a look, thanks.

PallasAthene wrote:No, I was trying illustrate how I understand it in horary. I haven't progressed to natal yet. If its a bad example ignore it! It's strong but fallen.. how do you describe or explain that? Could also be directed at the self, not outwards. Depends on the whole chart of course, it was just an illustration.

Sounds like a good thread, I'll have a look, thanks.

Yes, well, like I said- it's very interesting to study this placement of Mars in Natal charts of big athletes- completely impossible to exclude the placement form the overall picture or to disregard the aspects, rulerships and relevant cusps. There is a reason why people like Michael Phelps can achieve what they do with such a placement!
As for Horary- well, again, everything will pretty much depend upon the rest of the chart but also on the "role" that the planets is actually playing in it. Is it one of the main significators, a translator of light, is it a person....? Generally, i believe that i could only say that, I believe that both the fall and the triplicity have got some sort of impact onto the situation (or onto the life of the Native if we're talking about a Natal chart)- but, without knowing the situation, it is basically impossible to tell what those might mean in a chart because, for what is worth- that mars could be the ruler of an object as well as of a person; important or less important, aspected or non-aspected ....!

aglaya, you are right of course, it does ALL depend on the context of the chart. But to be told this as a learner is very frustrating! After a few charts, it begins to sink in, but we still need something to hang our understanding on. No one wold deny that each planet has an essential nature, so it follows that the expression of that essence is affected according to placement in the chart.. or even through Ptomely's table since we are discussing dignity, and lack of it.

An object in it's triplicity but fall could have literally fallen.. to the floor, or out of a pocket or bag, or into a ditch, for example. It would still be in working order. (Triplicity) But in detriment, the object might be damaged or malfunctioning.

Triplicity and fall reminds me of a Shakespearian tragic hero... they all have a fatal tragic flaw which causes their downfall. This is an intrinsic part of their essential nature or character. But they are still the hero of the play! And without the flaw, they couldn't be the hero. Mars in cancer reminds me of Othello in particular.. a play about jealousy and domestic violence. Venus in virgo could be Romeo and Juliette? The lovers in the house and exultation of mental mercury, the trickster. Just another analogy for illustration only, my knowledge of Shakespeare is limited!

What is surprising when you first look at Ptomely's chart is... how can the moon and mars possibly be related or share qualities and so be in triplicity in the first place?! That is the bottom line of triplicity and fall. I need to go and check those pages on the philosophy of sign rulership....back later.

Here's the thread where you mention the watery martian athletes:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... highlight=

Thanks for pasting the link, i was in a hurry the other day and didn't have time to search for the topic myself! It's a great read, the whole topic I mean with lots of useful thoughts!

PallasAthene wrote:aglaya, you are right of course, it does ALL depend on the context of the chart. But to be told this as a learner is very frustrating! After a few charts, it begins to sink in, but we still need something to hang our understanding on.

I agree, it happens to everyone I'd say! When I first took up learning Natal astrology I got all tangled up in different explanations. Then I switched to studying one thing at a time (aspects or dignities for example) but, since the curiosity has always been stronger than previously learnt (well- to try to find something that would make sense at least) and, again- with no success. At the time I was not ready or prepared enough to make a good synthesis and so, i'd start scratching my head shortly after making a chart. Focusing onto a single placement and eliminating the aspects at the same time, or focusing onto the nature of the planets involved in an aspect but disregarding the nature of the aspect itself was, usually, even more frustrating as I'd never end up with a decent description of a house. Then I simply decided I'd learn the natures of the aspects, then the nature of the planets and finally the nature of the houses. Then, I'd forget about the explanations found in books (word by word, I mean- i'd still use the general meanings only I'd allow myself a certain dose of flexibility) and would rely on my logic ...it takes time but eventually the things become more clear!

Still, I believe that it's the aspects that should always be included. Unaspected planets are IMO a great example for that- in many charts I've seen, unaspected planets present the general explanation of their placement inside a certain house/sign in the purest form- because there are no other influences. Sometimes, I'd spend a few days studying such planets in different charts and then i'd switch to a chart where the same planet has only got one aspect and try to see what happens!

Triplicity and fall reminds me of a Shakespearian tragic hero...

Why, you couldn't have picked a better example!

Just another analogy for illustration only, my knowledge of Shakespeare is limited!

I have a Master Degree in Shakespeare and Theatre! (they call us Shakespeareologists - a horrible title, i know!!!! )


But, even form the Astrological point, I believe his characters and most of his plots are actually a great example especially when it comes to aspects vs. placements (or the combination of the two). They are tragic heroes- but often very powerful and influential; capable of destroying many people's lives (including their owns) ! Now that I think of it- I'd say that the love of Romeo and Juliet fits the description of Aquarius rather than Virgo (well, speaking in general, anyway!) Virgo is methodical and rational- they were not! They were ready to die; impulsiveness, passion, rebellion, fighting against the tradition and their parent's decisions.... BUT- their love was prohibited and, thus- not fruitful. It was the others who decided that they should not be together- probably a square (with the ruler of the parents and home) or another affliction; the influence of Uranus (destructive behaviour and hasty decisions), obviously Neptune too- idealistic approach, willingness to die, dissolved relationship, poison..... Being ready to die together should probably be evident from mutual reception. The 8th house, a possible conjunction of the lovers' rulers.... Probably an afflicted Moon (Cancer rules tradition, Moon is always relevant and here we have the worst possible outcome).....
Those are just some of the first things that come to my mind when I think of a "chart" cast upon a "Romeo and Juliet" question! I hope it makes sense!

I really enjoyed reading that! Shame no (traditional) planet in fall in aquarius.. but sun in detriment could suit the couple..since their life force is destroyed in the end.

I used venus in fall in virgo because I saw the rational families as virgo and the couple as venus. They cannot thrive when their families are in dispute and only using their heads and not their hearts.

I would call you a Shakespeare scholar! Much more elegant.