6th Oct 2009, 23:15, Bristol, UK

16:37 cancer rises.

I wasn't sure if I should make this chart public. However, I'm having difficulties coming to a conclusion. I may well advise the querent that I'm not well qualified enough to interpret the chart. However I am concerned that in doing so, I have contaminated the question.

The querent is concerned at foul play in the apparent suicide of her cousin (mother's brother's daughter) at the age of 29. She was found hanged on Aug 1st 2009. The querent reports the cousin was planning to leave her boyfriend on the Friday and was found dead on the Saturday. The querent suspects the boyfriend. The coroner's report and the results of the post mortem are delayed. The police are obviously involved but have made no further moves.

So, I'm looking for indicators as to the mental state of the quesited and/or indicators of death by the hand of another.

I think this chart is radical, question was asked on mars day in venus hour.. so cancer rising, moon of similar nature to venus. Or, if I should be checking triplicity rulers of cancer, mars is in 1st house.

Firstly whether to read the natural chart or the turned chart?

I'm going to turn the chart. So querent is moon, exulted, in own triplicty and face so of good character and strong in the chart. Would exultation point to being "full of her own opinion"? In her 11th of hopes and wishes.. a conclusion of murder is preferable because of all that suicide would imply, especially the guilt of "why didn't I do something to help"? Intercepted, she feels powerless to act in this situation.

Mars is in cancer in 1st house, showing the suspicion of domestic violence. Mars is applying to the south node, a malefic point. But is this enough to confirm the suspicion? Mars in cancer may also reflect the querent as her tone and speech was direct, clear and straight forward, although somewhat agitated. She obviously needs to find an answer. She has a sweet voice with a lilting accent.

The quesited is 3rd of relatives & cousins. Pollux rises.. blindness, in juries to the face, wounds and imprisonment. So sun in fall in libra, in terms of jupiter and applying trine to jupiter L8 (turned). Jupiter (is this called the killing planet?) is in detriment of sun. Now, shouldn't this aspect be passed, since questited has already died? The trine would show an "easy" or quick death? JupRx will not bring clarity regarding the death until it goes direct in a few days. (incidentally, that is when I have promised the deliver a judgment to the querent). Does rx show a "weak" death i.e. not honourable, so pointing to suicide?

Sun is exactly sextile POF on turned 4th cusp, also disposited by jupiter. How to read that? The treasure of this chart is in end of the matter for the questited

Uranus in natural 10th, the most elevated planet, indicates the shocking nature of the situation. Can it be said to collect the light of saturn, turned L7, and mars (also mercury & venus) since it is the heaviest planet? It is turned 8th so a significator of the death, but is that the shock of suicide, which in fact is usually premeditated in some way, or the suddenness of murder as an act of passion, or an accident.

Looking at a possible indicator of mental state, turned 12th is also disposited by sun. Does this show melancholy in the querent? Extreme enough for suicide? Sun is in fall, describing her self-undoing?

Looking at the boyfriend, turned 7th, saturn. Peregrine in virgo, still, just, under the sunbeams, in terms of mars. Is this the picture of a murderer? Is he concealing knowledge, (being next to mercury)? Will that knowledge be revealed soon when he is clear of the sunbeams? In detriment of jupiter, he detests her death but for what reason? He has no reception with sun, although she exults him. This is not the picture painted by the querent, quite the opposite as she is reported to be leaving him. So should I be reading the natural chart?

In the natural chart, and using Goldstein's reception by degree, mars would be at 24 taurus, close to algol, in detriment, ruler of 11th, could describe a crime of passion, possibly sexual in nature (as 5th of 7th)or motive. Moon at 16 cancer would translate from sun, L3 in libra, to venus L5, in fall so relate to a message about the end of the affair. This would link L7 and L8, both disposited by saturn. The authorities, L10, jup in L8 and so are investigating the death.

In the natural chart L1 is much stronger than L6 so does not point to mental illness or depression. In the turned chart L6 and L1 are pretty well matched, so again I cannot see a glaring indication of suicidal depression, unless that would be L12 and L1 as sun in fall in 4th in libra.

I feel reluctant to come to any firm conclusion due to the gravity of the situation. (Moon rising?) Any viewpoints would be much appreciated. I will obviously be very careful in any information I pass on to the querent.

Strange, I'm getting an Aquarius ascendant for this hour, not Cancer. Both Placidus and Regiomontanus.

The following delineation will prove controversial because I practise my own brand of Horary. You will be in a good position to judge whether or not my approach makes sense by comparing my interpretation against facts you are aware of now and might be in the future.

I know that one of the meanings ascribed to the third house is 'cousins'. I suspect this is so because in the past, families tended to live closer together than today and were likely to be neighbors, which is another third house meaning. However, in this case I would use the radix forth house for the cousin (mother's brother's daughter). The mother is the 10th house, the brother is the 10th's third, and the daughter is the fifth house from there, so 10 + 3 + 5 - 2 = 16 = 4. That makes Mercury the significator of the cousin. In a moment, you'll see how the chart seems to corroborate our choice of Mercury.

The first thing you notice is that Mercury is in conjunction with Saturn and Venus.

Looking at receptions, I see that Saturn loves and is besotted with Mercury (reception by rulership and exaltation). Mercury, on the other hand, shows no such attraction to Saturn. In fact, there is no interest shown towards Mercury. Saturn begins to look like the boyfriend being dropped. Interestingly, Saturn doesn't rule the cousin's 7th house cusp, but it does rule her 5th. This suggests that the boyfriend is really more of a lover or friend than a real boyfriend. This is one of the interpretations that you might be in position to validate.

I don't know if another man is really involved in this situation but checking receptions for Venus, you can see that Venus also loves and is besotted with the cousin. These receptions and conjunction suggest a triangle situation where there might be a new man is in the cousin's life. According to John Frawley, Saturn often appears as the losing third person in triangles. Looking further into receptions, we can see that Saturn loathes Venus (reception by fall). The boyfriend loathes the other man. Now the cousin (Mercury) doesn't seem to like Venus much either (Venus is in the detriment of Mercury).

Mercury is in excellent shape (in her rulership, exaltation, and face). My rule for being under the Sun's beams requires that the planet be in the same sign as the Sun (bound to be controversial but that is my rule). Bottom line, the cousin felt strong enough to do what needed to be done: drop the boyfriend as she no longer had any interest in him.

Now to the subject of foul play. Since Mercury is in fine shape with respect to dignities, suicide does not seem to be likely. In this chart I don't see a "smoking gun" to suggest murder as all aspects are applying (in the future) except for Mars (trine) and Uranus (opposition). Interestingly enough, if you choose to use the non-traditional planets, Uranus is also a ruler of the boyfriend.

Without the ability to chat with your client or check other facts about this case, I would theorize that the cousin grew tired of her boyfriend and, feeling strong, dropped him or was determined to do so. I don't see a reason to jump to the conclusion that it was murder, but I would find it unlikely that a person who was strong and was feeling strong would chose suicide. If there was murder involved, it was probably in a fit of jealousy because the boyfriend felt that he was being dropped for 'the other man' and wouldn't have any of it.

I hope this analysis provides you with a few things to think about and would like to know what you wind up concluding once more facts are known.

Thanks for taking the time to look at the chart. I looked at mercury too, when I first ran the chart using the method you used. So the first problem is assigning significators. Mercury could also represent the mental function of the quesited.

PallasAthene wrote: In the natural chart, and using Goldstein's reception by degree, mars would be at 24 taurus, close to algol,

Actually, I think this is just plain wrong. Mars is in detriment and would need to be in rulership or exultation to apply the rule?

If mercury is the questied, I would take jupiter as the boyfriend. Antiscia of merc is around 4 degrees aries in the 7th, showing her secret activity in 7th house matters. Uranus here, Rx, would show her shocking change of mind and his shocked reaction, he didn't see it coming and the impending separation. Mars would rule turned 8th, in the 10th of authorities. Moon in 8th shows the authorities investigating the death. The strength of moon as 10th house ruler gives me some hope that the coroner will produce a "good" report. The lack of previous aspects of the moon shows the delay in prior action, ie delayed report.

Mercury, while essentially strong, is actually besieged between fallen mars and peregrine saturn.

Antiscia of moon is conj sun at 13:32 libra. Sun is 11th and 12th of quesited, turned 5th and 6th of "the other". Or is that the quesited herself.

I hope a moderator will have time to comment on the chart. If anyone else has some input you could pm me if you feel that commenting in public is inappropriate. Thanks.

SunMachine, did you use the correct location?

PallasAthene wrote:If mercury is the questied, I would take jupiter as the boyfriend.

I'm curious. What is the basis for taking Jupiter as the boyfriend? I don't see any aspect with Mercury and the receptions between Jupiter and Mercury don't indicate any relationship.

When I put the data of the time and place of this question into Astrodienst, using the whole sign house system, the resultant chart indicated Cauda Draconis (Dragon's Tail, South Node) posited in the 1st house. An old (very old-possibly largely forgotten today) teaching was that whenever the Dragon's Tail was found in the first house of a horary figure, that figure was "corrupt", ie, the indications would be confusing, misleading, unreliable, etc; what one is supposed to do in such a case is to wait and re-ask the same question at a later time. Gerard of Cremona both in his geomantic translation and in other astrological works (his translations of arabic astrological texts) is quite insistent upon this point, and personally I have always followed this advice in horary work.

Sorry, my bad, I read your post and somehow I just skipped the 23:15 hour, I thought the hour was 16:37...

p19997, if the quesited is 4th house, her committed relationship is turned 7th, jupiter, in triplicity and face of mercury. Found in turned 5th may indicate his demotion to less serious status. Or that she does not view the relationship as serious, as you pointed out. May even show his interest is in having children?

dr farr, I agree that the chart is difficult to read so will take your point re s.node in the 1st although I haven't heard of that as a stricture against judgment before. It does seem to suit this chart.

I think there is a case for reading the natural chart, not least significators are straightforward. I believe this is done in missing persons charts. Although the quesited is not missing, the circumstances need to be reveled. A close look at all antiscia may be useful.

Quesited moon, exulted, in triplicity, but intercepted. Of strong mind, but her actions are blocked. Mars in 1st with south node, Mars rules her 11th, her hopes and wishes, 11th come to a fatal/fated conclusion.
She is applying to and disposited by venus. 5th cusp conj spica. Either a lover or a child. In detriment of mars, his 5th, maybe she doesn't want his child.

Saturn, the other, in the 4th so implicated in the end of the matter, also endings and her home. Peregrine. In detriment of jupiter, the authorities, 10th. Fall of venus, her 5th. He is disposited by and exults mercury which is very strong in the chart. His 6th and 10th. Ill-health and reputation. Her 12th and 4th, her self-undoing or secrets, and home, maybe the home they share.
I was told he is a body builder, so very fit. And saturn suits the discipline required for this activity. It seems he is most concerned with her secrets and home life and his reputation.

Pluto is in his 12th. Secrets (dark?) that will come to light. Saturn applies by square. They will be revealed with difficulty. And he is afraid of the police investigation, in detriment of jup. POF on his 12th cusp, antiscia in the 10th. This connects secret investigations with his own secrets. The last aspect of the moon was 15 degrees ago, trine pluto. Nothing else happens with the moon, until a square to jupiter in less than one degree. The moon connects pluto, his secrets, and jupiter, the police and/or coroner. The report will be available very soon.

Neptune is on 9th cusp. It's cusp placement seems important but I am lost for an interpretation.