hi, estebon
could you give us any example on how the mercury of a client could influence the way you give information in a consultation?
thanks

Hi all!
I think that Merc in Pisc gets a bad rap BECAUSE those who have it do not necessarily think "logically", instead psychic influences intervene, so those who are linear thinkers have diffiiculty grasping that linear and logical are not equitable; instead they are equitable PATHS. Albert Einstein's words and thoughts come to mind, although, he has tropical MC in Pisces, tropical Mercury in Aries...

At least one quote of our ancients, very critical in respect of Mercury not only in Pisces but in Cancer and Scorpio too. William Lilly in CA, p. 545:

"Signes of corrupt or simple understanding.

[...] Mercury in watry signes, usually without the aspect of one of the Fortunes, shewes an Idiot: and if in those Signes Saturn afflict him, the Native stuts, or hath an impediment in his speech. Probatum;[...]"

Johannes

I agree with Tom, Mercury in Pisces or in Sagittarius does not mean the native is an idiot, but at least it's a red flag.

I saw many cases, in my experience native is not stupid, but short sighted in his/her decisions, or careless, something like that.

margherita

I think it has been shown that the sign placement of Mercury is only one factor of the mind in natal work, so it's kind of useless to make pronouncements from that alone.

It is sometimes said that current-day traditionalist astrologers are using sign placement to the extreme and giving it exaggerated importance.

And then there's the difference of procedure for horary and natal astrology. In a horary chart it may be appropriate to use Mercury in Pisces as a description of a person's qualities, whereas in a natal chart the Moon and Asc & its lord also need to be considered. From what I can see, horary relies on and effectively uses a stock of physical and character descriptions. Could the recent resurgence of horary astrology be contributing to a heavy-handed use of sign placement in natal astrology? The descriptive tools of the horary approach seem to be making for overly confident natal astrologers who too methodically explain factors A B and C in the birth charts of complex human beings. In modern or New Age astrology you don't find this 'Mercury in Pisces as dimwit' problem. Those distant cousins of traditionalist astrologers (as viewed by the traditionalists) may be more correct ? and kinder.

Kirk wrote:In a horary chart it may be appropriate to use Mercury in Pisces as a description of a person's qualities, whereas in a natal chart the Moon and Asc & its lord also need to be considered.

As many have already told in this thread traditionally qualities of mind are given by Moon and MERCURY.

Myself in the previous post took my definitions from Ptolemy.
He is very explicit in saying that a Mercury in a bad condition - whatever it is, but I believe detriment could be easily classified as bad- is not good for mind.

margherita

Margherita wrote:

Mercury in Pisces or in Sagittarius does not mean the native is an idiot, but at least it's a red flag. I saw many cases, in my experience native is not stupid, but short sighted in his/her decisions, or careless, something like that.

Ok then. Do remember to make that point if you attend a workshop with Robert Hand (Mercury in Sag) or Bernadette Brady (Mercury in Pisces)

Mark

Speaking of Rob Hand, here is something he wrote back in 2000 about his Mercury in Sagittarius, found at StarIq.com. [ http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0001767.HTM ] I have no idea what he thinks about it now, but surely he would point out the need to factor in the Moon and Asc.

I have Mercury in Sagittarius, which is its detriment. This is supposed to make my Mercury weak, in theory. Yet here I am, making a living writing, lecturing and doing astrology which is traditionally a Mercurial activity. But I do have some traditional detrimented Mercury problems. My handwriting is terrible, my level of manual and digital dexterity is quite low (according to tests) and I have always had some problems keeping things organized. What is going on here?
The answer seems to be that my Mercury effects divide along the lines of whether or not what I am doing requires my being fully present and conscious. When I am being conscious and intentional, everything Mercurial not only works, but works very well. I am actually known for doing things that are very Mercurial indeed. And when I am not being conscious, the sloppier effects of Mercury in Sagittarius become evident.

He follows that with some thoughts on Mercury in Pisces.

In the previous paragraph he had written:

Detriment and fall do not really weaken a planet. It is more our problem. We are more creative with these planets when we are being conscious beings and less creative when we are less conscious. The planet in fact is actually dignified. It is ourselves that create the debility.

This probably won't appeal to those who a prefer a more deterministic astrology.

it is interesting to note that whenever someone mentions Rob Hand or his work they attach "I don't know what he thinks now" about this or that theory. And they are correct! Mr. Hand has changed theories to the point of absurdity. I had a close friend get a reading from him a few years ago and he was using Whole Sign Houses, Outer Planets and ignoring the angles!
Someone who speaks (and writes) their mind adamantly and then changes it, sometimes to a full 180, is a product of a Mercury in Sagittarius.
Also the way he described not intelligence but the processing of information is the effect of Mercury and not just a persons understanding.

it is interesting to note that whenever someone mentions Rob Hand or his work they attach "I don't know what he thinks now" about this or that theory. And they are correct! Mr. Hand has changed theories to the point of absurdity.

Just for the fun of it I came up with an 'Almuten of Mind' calculation for Solar Fire which simplistically adds up points for the Asc, its lord, Mercury and the Moon, which gives a planet that has the most credentials as Big Boss of the Mind.

For Mr. Hand I get Mars ? 22, Jupiter ? 12; Moon ? 11 (all the others are way behind with 3 or less). And that is quite interesting because in his chart the Moon next applies conjunct Mars and then trine the 1st house Jupiter ? at the time of his birth all three are within orb of aspect. Add all that changeability, energy and outreach to his fluctuating Cardinal Cancer Ascendant and you can see that the man's mind was meant to move on (great alliteration, Kirk). Moon and Mars in Scorpio adds a good dose of fixity, so I don't think he's facile or flighty about it. Could his combust Mercury be a factor? I'm still trying to figure out what to do with those things ? happen to have one myself.

Rob Hand
Dec 5, 1942
7:30 pm
Plainfield, NJ

Asc; 12 CAN 21
Rated: A


It's interesting to watch how people's ideas and thoughts change and adapt; you just have to keep in mind when they stated something and how it may stand in relation to their current position. The ones who have to stand ground and continually defend as the truth what they've said or written in the past are considerably more annoying. Unfortunately, there seems to be the belief that our thoughts and ideas should develop in a straight line toward a final intentionally established goal, with Step 2 obediently following Step 1, which is then dutifully followed by Step 3.

Also the way he described not intelligence but the processing of information is the effect of Mercury and not just a persons understanding.

Maybe Mercury should be thought of more as a computational device. They don't understand anything, but give out a lot of information for us to understand.

Detriment and fall do not really weaken a planet. It is more our problem. We are more creative with these planets when we are being conscious beings and less creative when we are less conscious. The planet in fact is actually dignified. It is ourselves that create the debility.

Great example of how mercury in detriment can make the thought process confuse!


Just kidding

yuzuru wrote:

Detriment and fall do not really weaken a planet. It is more our problem. We are more creative with these planets when we are being conscious beings and less creative when we are less conscious. The planet in fact is actually dignified. It is ourselves that create the debility.

Great example of how mercury in detriment can make the thought process confuse!


Just kidding

funny, i thought the same thing!