Andrew Bevan wrote:In my mind astrology is like a game of chess. The framework is set and each piece may be moved according to certain rules within this framework. Now it it perfectly possible to play this game like a sleepwalker, but few moves will be required before the game is lost and you end up 'Checkmate'. However, by applying a certain awareness and forsight before each move it is possible to lift the quality of the game. The rules do not change but the end result is lifted to a different level. That is what I mean by 'trading fates'.

I like this idea , just as I like chess as well.

In my mind astrology is like a game of chess. The framework is set and each piece may be moved according to certain rules within this framework. Now it it perfectly possible to play this game like a sleepwalker, but few moves will be required before the game is lost and you end up 'Checkmate'. However, by applying a certain awareness and forsight before each move it is possible to lift the quality of the game. The rules do not change but the end result is lifted to a different level. That is what I mean by 'trading fates'.

I am a keen chess player too so that analogy really appeals to me.

Its funny this discussion on the Eighth House was making me think of Ingmar Bergman's classic film 'The Seventh Seal'. The reference to chess makes that even stronger. The idea of playing death at chess is very 8th house!

The only problem is that sometimes in chess its checkmate in 4 moves no matter how you move the pieces!

Mark

MarkC wrote:The only problem is that sometimes in chess its checkmate in 4 moves no matter how you move the pieces!

Mark

You don't mean scholar's mate do you ? That one can easily be avoided. But I get what you mean. In astrology every now and then Saturn makes us 'an offer you can't refuse' .

You don't mean scholar's mate do you ?

No I progressed beyond that at School

Its those devilishly clever traps sprung by those Grandmasters I was thinking of. Sometimes it feels like our playing strength is not quite up to the opposition. Maybe checkmate in 10 moves is more like it.

Mark

In my mind astrology is like a game of chess. The framework is set and each piece may be moved according to certain rules within this framework. Now it it perfectly possible to play this game like a sleepwalker, but few moves will be required before the game is lost and you end up 'Checkmate'.

Naturally enough, I disagree strongly! It turns astrology ? and life ? into a competitive game of clever moves, won by those with the most strongly developed faculty of reason and logic. If you're smart enough you have it all figured out and you win. The praise goes to the rational will in the driver's seat; the praise goes to the astrologer. It creates an image of the heroic astrologer taking hold of astrology, arranging it, using it and working it. But can a person really lay his hands on eternal celestial cycles and the ancient symbolism that illuminates them? I think the more appropriate and useful image is of the humble astrologer applying to astrology, allowing himself or herself to be worked on by it.

Its those devilishly clever traps sprung by those Grandmasters I was thinking of.

Which leads one to think of those devilishly clever astrologers who have taken on and like to play the role of Grandmaster.

I thought I would return to something I came across when this discussion was active. I was aware that the 8th was sometimes thought of as the beginning of death. Deb writes on page 26 of her book on the houses:

It is worth noting that originally the 8th house was known as 'the beginning of death', because from its cusp the heavenly sphere falls towards the descendant [K: emphasis appears in the original].

On page 47 of the Greenbaum translation of Paulus Alexandrinus' Introductory Matters we find:

The eighth from the Horoskopos is called Idle, because it is in aversion and disjunct from the Horoskopic zoidion. It is also the post-descension of the setting zoidion, and signifies the accomplishment of death. [K: A footnote gives the Greek word teleute translated as 'accomplishment' .]

So, I wonder what it might be ? the beginning or the accomplishment of death? Is Paulus out of the mainstream here? It does make sense if you picture a 2 step process:

1) Getting run through by a spear during a 7th house battle.
2) The resulting Death itself, symbolized in the flow of time by the passing of the 8th house sign over the Descendant.

The Paulus view focuses on the signs as they pass over the Descendant. First we get speared. Then we lie on the battlefield waiting for death. It doesn't really matter if death takes only a few seconds. It's the two-step process that counts, symbolized in time by the passage of the signs over the Descendant. It's a reflection of the signs passing over the eastern horizon - the horizon of life.

There is a symbolic charm to the idea of the 8th as the beginning of death because of the upcoming plunge into the underworld at the Descendant, but it doesn't seem quite right now that I think about it. It doesn't seem Greek. The Greek way would seem to be one of watching the succeeding signs cross the horizon. And if we're studying and practicing western astrology then we're more or less Greek.

Was Paulus correct? Maybe its important to look at the Greek word teleute and its translation.

MarkC wrote:

Incidentally, it has belatedly occured to me that a waxing Moon in the 8th would in most cases ( assuming Sun was not in zodiacal degrees behind it in the 7th or 8th) be the sect light hence its increased power. I assume it would need to be free of the Sun's beams (15 degrees) or malefics for this more positive interpretation to apply.

Mark

I?ve read this somewhere too, that the Moon is the "only planet to joy in the 8th", wonder why that is... it seems very contrary.


The 8th is not just death, that?s pretty obvious. I?d point more towards the resources association of the 8th, and the fact that these are the resources of partners or enemies. Many old texts talk about "the wife?s portion", which seems to have maybe a sexual undertone to it, since the wife (or husband) would simply be signified by the 7th.

2nd house polarity:

The second is the sustenance of life for the native. The 8th is the sustenance of life for the native?s partner. The second house I have also read in places has association with personal desire... the goods, or thing that you want which would bring you material (physical pleasure). Perhaps this is the desire of the wife too, sustenance, possessions, and talents.

Moon in the 8th then in this analysis would signify a wife/husband with emotional desire, or an emotional attachment. Perhaps this is what the native gives to the partner, since as has been stated, what the native loses goes to other people and becomes theirs... the giving up of emotion to allow the other half to have it... something like that.

I?ve observed a relationship with one person having Mars in the 8th (exalted and in close trine to Sun), and their other half, possessing more of the Martian qualities, especially with regard to career and money making. She supports him financially, or that?s the way it leans. Though on the other hand... since this is Mars... I believe that this is a source of friction and anger, on the part of the one that makes the money. Some observations, with one example, though my mind is not made up on the significations here. It would perhaps warrant a closer look at 8th ruler and it?s strength also.


Personally, I agree with the initial Horary interpretation of the 8th. Planets here are deeply stressed and unhappy. The source of the unhappiness must in some way be in relation to desired outcomes, which are not possible. It comes back to the idea that the 8th really belongs to the persons signified by the seventh. Whatever it is, is in the hands of someone else, which means that it?s entirely up them. Something that you care about being at the total disposal of someone else, is always going to make you upset in some ways.

I have 8th house Moon, with 8th dispositor (and Moon dispositor) Mars conjunct the Ascendant in house 1 in dignity. I will say that I let others "take care" of things, or simply to have power over certain things, not necessarily money or possessions, and it?s always a worry... of whether they will manage it, a matter of total trust... because you put it entirely in their hands. But I think whatever it is, usually works out alright, probably due to having dispositor in the 1st.

I?ve read this somewhere too, that the Moon is the "only planet to joy in the 8th", wonder why that is... it seems very contrary.

Moon rises when the sun is about to set - that is the 8th-7th zone.

PD

I identify with early awareness of death with Sun in 8. As a kid i was already too aware of it. The same goes for idleness and the fear of life.
But in placidus system my Sun is in 9th cusp, only Venus and mars remain in 8th

Tom wrote:Re: the chess metaphor. Grandmasters do not spring traps on other grandmasters. At that level one does not often fall for traps. They try to create tiny advantages and then exploit them. I played a grandmaster once (No, I was nowhere near that good - it was a simultaneous exhibition and while I pondered the board he amused himself playing 105 other people). I made an error in the opening and he strangled me: slowly and inexorably. I gave up the game shortly afterward.


Chess players would make an interesting study. Some psychological studies have been made and surprisingly they are not necessarily, as a group, smarter than everyone else, although I'm sure as we drop down the IQ ladder, the number of players drop off. They do seem to have phenomenal memories. They easily memorize games of other grandmasters and they recognize positions and patterns on the board. These things are the hallmark of the melancholic temperament. I wonder if there is a connection.

Sorry for the off topic interlude.

Tom

H8 is the house of desire- Mars at its lowest if you like- sex obsession, agression etc

Here I'd say that the 8th house theme is seen more clearly when the 1st or 2nd ruler is in the 8th.

Besides possible wills and deaths, I'm actually curious about a 1st ruler in the 8th in nativity, if anyone has any good sources. Seems like a bad spot to be, since the ASC lord is in aversion to its own house, and the 8th is a place of fear and anguish. I'm a 1st ruler in the 6th, so I know that one's not so fun. I suppose it would depend on the planet in question too though, and of course other factors in the chart.

I can't think of any famous people, and only know of one person with this 1st house lord placement in the 8th, this ruler (Mercury in Cap) also being combust and trine both of the malefics (beseiged), and he seems like a person with a lot of dark thoughts and phobias. Very, very private and closed off type and a disdain for the superficial.

I?ve read this somewhere too, that the Moon is the "only planet to joy in the 8th", wonder why that is... it seems very contrary.

Moon rises when the sun is about to set - that is the 8th-7th zone.

I've never heard that any planet Joys in the 8th! I wonder what the source of this information is, because that seems contrary to me also. The Moon Joys in the 3rd according to Lilly, and the Moon would do better to rise after the Sun is set below the horizon. The Moon does better occidental in figure, which is closer to the descendant (also occidental with relation to the Sun of course), but I wouldn't assume the 8th would be so fine for it, though it is western in direction.