Ficina or John

Would either of you contact him and clear all this up??

I've just written to the Birmingham City FC official historian.

I've emailed the chap at Villa. We'll see if we get any sense!

Stoke City:

1863 Charterhouse school former pupils who were employed by North Staffordshire railway company formed a football team.

Five years later it became known as Stoke Ramblers. First known game October 1868.

Merger with Stoke Victoria Cricket Club-when the team moved to the Victoria Ground. They became Stoke. First league game 8/9/1888.

Stoke FC Limited company in 1908.

Start of 1925/26 season became Stoke City FC. First game 29/8/1925 home to Stockport

Gem wrote:[Their identity doesn't change... You have your natal chart and during the lifetime you may move houses but your natal chart is still valid and shows such potential changes ( club's founding chart). On the other hand I also believe the chart when you moved into your new house is valid. I think this chart has precedence over the first match whether home or away. Love to hear what others think.




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With some of the smaller clubs the first game I could find was playing at their original ground in a league game, so the two issues of first game and first game at their home becomes confused.
I tend to treat the ground change as you say, a change of home.

You are saying that the new home chart takes precedence over the teams first game? So Man City playing at Eastlands is more significant than Man City playing their first game as Man City?
Personally I'd go with the first game with their new identity, wherever that was-unless we have a meeting date confirming the new name.

I think I still have Everton and Wolves to do. Although I agree with the 20/12/1874 for Everton. I have two games for the first game at Goodison Park!!

Hello all.
The official Villa response is beneath. Received a few minutes ago.

Opinions on this would be welcome.


Hello John,

The matter of the origin of the club is covered in my new 2-volume book, about which there is information on my website.

When I wrote the book, there were only a few certainties (from my primary researches) I had about the 1874-75 period;

1. That (as you state) the football season then ended in March (and started in October). This is stated by many early commentators.
2. That Jack Hughes, one of the founders, stated in a talk he gave in 1899 (and which was reported in the press) that the founding of the club was in February, 1874 and that the Villa's first match was a part rugby, part soccer match against St. Mary's. That report does not say when the match was played.
3. Some later reporters (including Norman Edwards) stated that the first match (the part rugby, part soccer match) was in March, 1874, and that the match was the only match of the season. A sports journalist of the 1890s/1900s in his notebook in the Villa's possession also stated March 1874. If the founding of the club was in the February, then March as the date of the first match is very attractive.
4. In opposition, it was also stated in a couple of press reports of the early 1890s that the founding of the club was in October 1874.
5. I found a press report of January, 1875 that refers to a match between Aston Unity and the Villa, which was not (of course) the part rugby match played against St. Mary's.

So there is doubt. But because Jack Hughes was the recognised authority (as he was there), I rather take the dates in 2 and 3 above as the relevant ones.

That is as much as we really know, but I am not prepared to say with 100% conviction that March 1874 was the time of the first match. It may have been at the start of the next season (October or November 1874), but newspapers were very loathe to report anything on football in those days, so there is a certain amount of guessing in all this.

What is very interesting, however, is that since my book was published I was sent a photocopy of a press report of a part-rugby and part soccer match that was played by Villa against St. Mary's in (allegedly) March, 1875 - the time that you suggest. I have yet to validate the date of the report. If that report is of a March 1875 match, then if that was the famous match against St. Mary's, then the legend that it was the Villa's first match is quite incorrect (as there was at least one match played earlier - in January 1875). It could, however, have been the first match that Villa won, as they lost the January match - in which case Mr. Jack Hughes told something of a fisherman's tale!

Interesting stuff! :-) I hope that helps,

Kind regards,

John

Thank you so much John!!

Lots of interesting information and food for thought.

You are saying that the new home chart takes precedence over the teams first game? So Man City playing at Eastlands is more significant than Man City playing their first game as Man City?

No. The importance of first game didn't occur to me until you and Ficina referred to first game dates. I'd only looked at founding charts till then. I looked at transits over Burnley's first game chart yesterday. Curiously the founding charts of clubs such as ManU, Chelsea and Liverpool seem to respond well to transits (I haven't looked at their first game charts) while Burnley's responds better than their founding chart. So when you put it like 'Man City playing their first game as Man City? ' --- Yes it makes sense.

Personally I'd go with the first game with their new identity, wherever that was-unless we have a meeting date confirming the new name.

I agree.

Thanks again for your help and contributions.

Thank you so much John!! Lots of interesting information and food for thought.

Seconded! Great that you received such a prompt and detailed response. I agree with the historian that the dates in 2 and 3 are probably more reliable and plausible. However, we still don't have a definite date to work with unfortunately.

I found this particularly interesting:

newspapers were very loathe to report anything on football in those days

This is disappointing but very useful to know. When I was researching all this stuff last season I spent quite a while looking for newspaper reports on the British Library website, although the actual archives are kept in Colindale (north London). His comment indicates that this line of enquiry would probably be fruitless.

Aston Villa,

We have the official view. It looks like Feb or March 1874. Assuming they played at the wekend-most likely a saturday, then its a nice exercise for anyone who does rectification.
Do they do quizes and challenges for something like on the other forum discussion sites? It should keep them busy for a while. I'm sure we can provide the football data

The story is that Aston Villa-yes they have always been called Aston Villa-played this game against a rugby team. One half rugby and one half football.

Everton.

I agree with the 20/12/1879 date as the foundation.

Do we all use this chart?

Next. They moved to Goodison and played a friendly against Bolton on 24/8/1892.
First league game against Nottm Forest 3/9/1892.

Would anyone use these two charts? Why? Is it not just a change of home-( a good phrase by Gem ) to be seen in the first chart?

Everton were formed as St Domingo's FC and according to the official website:

St Domingo's FC quickly established a local reputation for themselves and players were recruited from outside of the parish, precipitating a change of name in November 1879 - to EVERTON.

The first game as Everton Football Club took place on December 20th 1879 at Stanley Park against St Peter's. Wearing blue and white striped shirts, Everton won 6-0, although, sadly, there are no records of line-ups or goalscorers.

john wrote:So the saturday was most likely. 29 March 1875. I'd be happy if someone could check this date as Easter saturday.

No. I have check three sources. In 1875 Easter Sunday was 28 March. So the Saturday was 27 March.

Hope this helps.

This from Reading FC:

The exact date of the club?s formation has always been somewhat of a mystery. As you rightly point out 1871 is the generally accepted date, and it is commonly acknowledged that the inaugural meeting of the club was in February of that year. The meeting itself was called by Edward Sydenham, a local, jeweller, though we did not play our first game until the 21st February 1872. It was a goalless draw with Reading Grammar School.

I had an email from Wolverhampton Wanderers' receptionist that my enquiry was passed to their historian.

No luck with the rest.

I've now realised the date I had for Fulham FC was wrong.
They were formed as Fulham St Andrew's Church Sunday School FC in 1879 but shortened thier name to the present form in 1888. Has anyone got the date please?