Hi, I?m still a new student of Horary and I?ve not posted before though I?m always reading with great interest. So far have only read charts for questions I can feel ok about. I have a chart here and I would appreciate some of your learned opinions to help me out with it as its quite a delicate issue.

Chart data: Oct 24 2009
08:38pm GMD (GMT -1)
009W27
51N41

A close friend wants to know whether if she has another child will it be born with learning difficulties. She had her first child a few years ago and her young baby was diagnosed with a genetic syndrome which causes severe developmental delays. She was told not to have more children as the risk was high. Earlier this year she unexpectedly fell pregnant but miscarried within a few weeks. This made her realise she desperately wanted another child and has decided to go ahead with trying to get pregnant in a few months when her current work project ends. Several months ago she asked me to cast a chart to know in advance whether her child will have ?special needs? so she can be prepared. I have put it off each time she asked but now she has pressed me again and I?ve agreed to have a look though I haven?t committed myself to giving her an answer. I thought that perhaps the chart would show that I couldn?t go ahead and let me off the hook! I cast the chart but still cant be sure how to read it so would welcome some help before I decide to go ahead with the reading.



Asc is 22 deg 07?gemini and L1, mercury is in 5th hse @ 23 deg libra, conjunct fixed star spica? so I feel that whatever comes of this it will be alright in the end. (This would be in tune with the querents basic philosophy and outlook on life.)

Mercury is strong here (fast, oriental) in its own terms and triplicity.
It is combust by degree and fast, applying to the Sun but the sun is in the next sign, scorpio. So I don?t give that significance. Am I right? Combust would suggest no child (or my inability to read the chart?)
L1 is in close trine to Asc, a positive indication.

Jupiter is on the 10th cusp, good as significator of children but lacks essential dignity here. L1 makes a separating trine to Jupiter.
I understand this to indicate she has already decided she will have another child.

I note though that both asc Gemini and 5th hse, Virgo are barren so not great for a pregnancy chart.

5th hse ruler is also mercury so the pregnancy/child gets the moon which seems appropriate enough (?) moon is also hour ruler. Is there any significance that mother and potential child have the same planet? There is no reception between Mercury/Moon.

5th hse (virgo) contains L1. Showing her strong desire to be pregnant.
Also Saturn (L8) who is strong (oriental, fast) but lacks essential dignity. Delays or impediments. Maybe this is the fear and anxiety and subsequent hesitation caused by the possibility of having another special needs child.
Venus is strong here (fast, oriental) in Libra and her joy and in the 5th as ruler of fertility shows promise and a good indicator of a pregnancy. She is also dispositor of L1.
The sun (L4) also in 5th is lacking in essential dignity.

Capricorn Moon is in 8th hse, badly placed, weak (occidental, slow) and in detriment. Not a good place for the pregnancy/child. Is this indication of some affliction, loss or delay in development such as learning difficulties?

L1 has L5 applying by square. Could this show the potential risks of having a special needs child as an adverse influence on the querent?

I?m still not totally convinced that she will have another child as the only aspect between her and the significator is the square with no reception.

Any suggestions here would be helpful.

Thanks

Hi here's the chart.


any comments welcome
thanks

Hi there,

I think the FIRST question here is will the querent actually be in a position to conceive and carry to full term.

The water signs are the fertile signs and we must look at the signs on the 1st, 7th, 5th and 11th houses and the signs that their respective rulers are in. If the majority of these signs are not fertile - and in this case it is the opposite - I really think it may be unlikely that the querent will go on to have another child.

However the 5th ruler is Mercury and being under Sun's Beams is not a good sign - when Mercury moves into the same sign as the Sun it is worse as it is then combust. I'm not sure I would try to separate the 1st and 5th house in the way you have, because the child is not a separate entity if it is not conceived - it is just a potential idea and this idea's fruition depends mainly on the mother's ability to conceive. They are very much one and the same aren't they? Hope that makes sense.

I don't think fixed stars, speed, orientality and other fairly minor things overrule the barrenness of this chart and certainly the Beams/Combustion are major testimonies in comparison also. I wouldn't suggest getting so far into this detail when the major testimonies are possibly telling a story much more loudly and simply.

I think the essential dignity there AT BEST could give give a conception, but with the Beams/Combustion and all the barrenness, I wouldn't even bet on it going that far. Perhaps in a more usual situation it may be expected that this level of dignity would be enough, but since this lady's situation has been diagnosed as fairly bad already, we'd possibly be looking at exaltation (where you get more than you bargained for) or rulership.

I am so sorry this sounds terribly negative, and I am not sure if/how you would choose to tell your friend.

Hi Horary Queen,
thanks for your comments.

Yes my "gut" feeling about the chart is that she isn't going to have another child. But I need to be sure I'm getting this from the chart too!

With Venus (general sig of fertility) and Jupiter (sig of children) being in the "right" place i.e. 5th and 10th I was encouraged to do the reading.

My first thought that L1 and L5 are both mercury, suggesting the mother and "child" are the same entity so perhaps no full term pregnancy.

Would you keep the moon as the querents co-significator in this case?

If so then I would see that (8th in Cap, detriment) as her distress over the sense of loss etc. Maybe the death of a hope?

What of the applying square moon to mercury? any suggestions? Her fears that she wont get/maintain a pregnancy?

I think this is particularly difficult for me to see clearly as I really dont want to miss the mark so perhaps I'm getting lost in the detail. Trying too hard. Whereas usually if I can see the obvious I stick to that.

thanks again

Ignoring at the moment the results of the horary, I would advice you to think on some matters that may be useful for your next horaries:

1- your role on accepting the question - you weren?t confortable with the question, but accepted anyway. It?s important to realize that it is the astrologer?s role to decide which questions he will accept and judge.

2- your role on the question - great care should be used, because your querent have already received medical advice NOT to have more children, and are looking for reasons to do what she wants, not what she already knows it is the correct way. It seems that she may want an enabler.

3- your responsibility on the question - let?s imagine that you have judged the horary and the result is extremely positive: "the doctor doesn?t know what he is saying, go and have a child today". But then you are wrong. Would you be prepared for the burden on yourself and in your friendship? The consequences of being wrong in this horary seem pretty cumbersome.

4 - the best way to advice the querent - as you have already accepted the question you now have the problem of "letting her down easy". Be aware that sometimes any little piece of hope that you try to give will be interpreted as a sounding "yes" by the eager querent.

Best regards
Y

Hi Yuzuru,
thanks for expressing your concerns. I agree that the role the astrologer takes in accepting a horary question is one of responsibility. I never deal with client or friend without due consideration, be assured.

Fortunately I have had a lifetime experience of dealing with sensitive and difficult issues with people to draw from so the subject matter in this chart in itself was not my difficulty.

Using horary charts with clients is relatively new though and I tread cautiously which is why I so appreciate others opinions on this chart. The reason I didn't feel ok on this one was because I wasn't certain I was reading it correctly and I dont want to offer my reading without confidence in my interpretation.

I totally trust astrology and have absolute confidence in it after over 30 years of use. My reason for hesitation is in my ability to interpret the chart! I will be a student for very many years yet which is another reason for appreciating this forum and the great work that people do here.

Just to clarify so no one is left concerned. My friend was advised against more children only because there is over 50% chance they would also have learning difficulties. Her personal health was not at risk.

thanks

I agree with yuzuru, be careful which questions you accept.

However, if in doubt, stick to the question.. will a second child have special needs? (not.. will I have another child?). If you use 5th house, mercury is strong and associated with mental function so a child with a high IQ. USB may tell another story. The child is hidden, out of sight, or generally debilitated. Could relate to the prognosis of the doctors, the "cloud" hanging over it.

Reading 2nd child as 5th of 5th, 9th... cusp at 29 degrees tells a tale. Too late, already known, endings generally, or maybe just "the last chance". Saturn is peregrine, almost at critical degree. In the fifth associates this child with the first. Then again, is this the house of grandchildren? In which case, please disregard this paragraph.

Moon (the querent, since mercury is given to 5th house, child) in detriment in 8th shows how anxious and compromised the querent is. Disposited by saturn, 2nd child?, or her recent miscarriage, she can think of nothing else. Gemini rising would show her in 2 minds on this issue.

Pluto in the 7th.. something to be revealed in the arena of the husband and/or the doctor. Maybe refer her back to the medical profession. Have there been any advancements since the last child? eg genetic testing of the foetus. Jupiter rules the doctor, also her husband so you need to decide which character is more important for this chart. I think it's the dictor. Jup is peregrine, maybe the opinion is not trustworthy. Neptune supports that view, confusion generally. Chiron shows the wound and possible healing in this arena. Jupiter angular.. he has power in this question. This combination could also show that she is unwilling to accept the medical opinion (neptune conj).

POF in the 4th.. genetics, family history, disposited by that confusing mercury. BUT don't forget, conj spica.. Trine pluto in 7th.. another reason to send her back to the doctor.

Moon applies to uranus in 11th, hopes and wishes. Shocks, changes, new and unexpected developments in this area. Sextile, so may not all be bad news.. helpful changes.

Strong mercury conj spica would indicate a child of good mental functioning, imo. I think the chart indicates advancements/revelations in the arena of the doctor. So that would be my judgment.. the querent should go back to the doctor, stressing that she is determined to have a child and then follow his advice or at least have a better understanding of all the implications.

Hi Pallas
thanks for your insights. I've a couple of questions for you.

If you use 5th house, mercury is strong and associated with mental function so a child with a high IQ. USB may tell another story. The child is hidden, out of sight, or generally debilitated.

Not sure what you mean here, how did you get the hidden, out of sight, debilitated?

Also you gave L5 to the child but moon to the querent. I would always give the first significator to the querent ie L1 mercury. So because L5 is also mercury the moon goes to the quesited. Is this not always the case then?

Moon (the querent, since mercury is given to 5th house, child)

When I look at horary charts I dont take much account of the outer planets or chiron etc unless they are closely tied in with a main significator or on an angle and even then I'm inclined to only give them a background status.

Hmmm interesting re jupiter in 10th as the doctor I didn't think of that.

thanks again

Hi

ok I just got it with the hidden etc. USB under suns beams !

USB may tell another story. The child is hidden, out of sight, or generally debilitated.

Yes this is one of the things that made me wonder if there was actually a child coming at all. Combined with Mercury soon to be combust. I suppose I took it as I cant see the child in this chart.

I definitely read under the sunbeams as the cloud hanging over the child/pregnancy... NOT a fault relating to the child per se.

Imho, under the sunbeams reflects the prognosis of the medical profession, especially since sun is the natural ruler of "authority" and so represents the doctor's opinion. This status is also connected to the querent's own attitude/fear relating to another child, as worded in the question.

A child who is mentally impaired may be shown by mercury lacking essential dignity.. usb is an accidental debility? Also L5 in turned L6, ie in the 10th, turned 8th or 12th maybe. This child is in its own house and in triplicity. Mercury strong seems particularly significant since the question concerns learning difficulties.

kakabel wrote:What of the applying square moon to mercury? any suggestions? Her fears that she wont get/maintain a pregnancy?

An opportunity to become pregnant, in 5 1/2 weeks or months. I agree that moon in 8th, in detriment, square and lacking mutual reception wouldn't hold out much hope for a full term pregnancy. Was the last pregnancy within that time frame ie 5 - 6 months ago?

Hi Pallas,

Yes, her last pregnancy, which miscarried was probably conceived around 5 months ago.

An opportunity to become pregnant, in 5 1/2 weeks or months. I agree that moon in 8th, in detriment, square and lacking mutual reception wouldn't hold out much hope for a full term pregnancy. Was the last pregnancy within that time frame ie 5 - 6 months ago?