zoidsoft wrote:The question is why, especially since the church goes out of it's way to make astrology a "sin".

Proof that our history has been tampered with comes from the work of Anatoly Fomenko; a Russian statistician who has proven strong correlations between large sections of pre-renaissance history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Fomenko

Was there some sort of cover up led by the Church to erase history and replace it with something less threatening? I suspect that the same was the case with lots of the old astrological texts that no longer survive. Library burning was a favorite pastime of despots. Nowadays, they call it "dis-information" and make you swim in a sea of lies and half truths so that you can't think straight.

From Wikipedia:
"He asserts from this that all of ancient history (including the history of Greece, Rome, and Egypt) is just a reflection of events that occurred in the Middle Ages and that all of Chinese and Arab history are fabrications of 17th and 18th century Jesuits."

But we are sure of what your Russian "scientist" is saying? Here we are full of Russian "scholars" who have not even the knowledge of a student of our secondary school.... (I saw with my eyes)

I read with interest all the thread, but if this can be at support of what you say, I don't understand, sorry.

Church can have done many mistakes, burning Giordano Bruno and organising Inquisition, yes but building the Colosseum is too much- especially when one considers in which crisis was Europe in Middle Ages after the Fall of Roman Empire.

p.s in this interesting book of Fomenko you will find the true story of Schifanoia salon of decans in Ferrara, enjoy,

http://bit.ly/7qjiqT

margherita

Gjiada wrote:
But we are sure of what your Russian "scientist" is saying? Here we are full of Russian "scholars" who have not even the knowledge of a student of our secondary school.... (I saw with my eyes)

I read with interest all the thread, but if this can be at support of what you say, I don't understand, sorry.

One can easily get chaos in statistical analysis, but to accidentally get order in the results is like expecting your random actions to line up all of the sides of a Rubic's cube that was once a mess. This would be highly improbable. The fact that he found sequences of 720, 960 years and other intervals, but that no such correlation exists after the onset of the renaissance is a sure sign that something is wrong. So either the Russians completely fabricated our history just for the purpose of this study or our history has been rewritten centuries ago to fit some purpose.

Some of these intervals even have correlates in astrological cycles, but Fomenko has no interest in astrology. Because the correlation breaks down after the renaissance, we can't say that astrology was the cause for the ordered results in the history.

Fomenko's own explanation is that our pre-renaissance history is really the same history written from several different perspectives and that there is only 720 years of this history and that it is fabricated. Understandably this is a hard pill to swallow in academia... But Fomenko comes from academia! He was one of the top statisticians in the world before he took on this subject.

There are problems though... the dating of Neuguebauer's Greek Horoscopes being one of them.

zoidsoft wrote:But Fomenko comes from academia! He was one of the top statisticians in the world before he took on this subject.

World is full of successful researchers in some field that invent in others.
Just give a short look about Fomenko site and his books, Jesus came from Crimea and so on.... Just a case of Russian mysticism mixed with their national myth of the third Rome.

There are problems though... the dating of Neuguebauer's Greek Horoscopes being one of them.

the point is this field is full of uncertainty. Scholars quarrel without finding an agreement. Evidently there is not a real and definitive evidence because if it was like that everybody would agree.
Just quoting someone like Fomenko does not help, in my opinion.

Come here in Rome, we have plenty of Roman relics, we see them with our eyes every day while we go to work or at school. There is no falsification, believe me.

margherita

Gjiada wrote:
the point is this field is full of uncertainty. Scholars quarrel without finding an agreement. Evidently there is not a real and definitive evidence because if it was like that everybody would agree.

Disagreements arise when agendas conflict, not necessarily because the facts don't fit. People have a great capacity to believe what they want in the face of obvious facts to the contrary. There are are few areas that aren't in some sort of disagreement. The Kennedy assassination, Moon walk, Hitler's extermination of the Jews, etc. you will find disagreements and nay-sayers everywhere to fit the agenda based not on fact, but on advancement of personal goals.

The research of Fomenko has to be taken seriously because he didn't write that history, only subjected it to statistical analysis. It is easier and more reasonable to say that large sections of pre-renaissance history have been fabricated or re-written in some way than to fault the same statistical analysis procedures which have held up in other fields of science.

Relics in Rome prove nothing. You can have a caption contest on these relics and centuries from now it would become part of the history. All you have to do is rewrite in some way as to make it seem reasonable to the period and it would become "authentic" history centuries from now because none of us was there to see it.

I think Fomenko's statistics are interesting though his conclusion isn't supportable, or even the most reasonable conclusion. I think he insists on the notion of the entire fabrication of pre-Renaissance history because of a reaction against Marxism, primarily the idea that history follows demonstrable patterns under the influence of dialectical materialism. We, being students of astrology, would probably point the source of that phenomena in another direction.

GR wrote:I think Fomenko's statistics are interesting though his conclusion isn't supportable, or even the most reasonable conclusion. I think he insists on the notion of the entire fabrication of pre-Renaissance history because of a reaction against Marxism, primarily the idea that history follows demonstrable patterns under the influence of dialectical materialism. We, being students of astrology, would probably point the source of that phenomena in another direction.

There are multiple explanations and I doubt that a complete re-write of history is the case here, but the changing of certain "facts" is not unlikely given human nature.

The Bible has lots of astrological symbolism in it and it is obviously deliberate, but can anyone here explain what the symbols mean? Somewhere that teaching has been lost.

zoidsoft wrote: The Bible has lots of astrological symbolism in it and it is obviously deliberate, but can anyone here explain what the symbols mean? Somewhere that teaching has been lost.

But this does not mean that it was deleted by the Church or by some king in order to hide some occult secret, this happens just in Da Vinci Code.
The simplest solution is always the most probable in my opinion

Bible symbolism was lost for the same reason was lost Babylonian symbolism, because after 70 AD Jerusalem was conquered, the Temple destroyed and Jews left Israel and in the same time there were not Babylonians or Egyptians anymore to preserve their tradition.

And when the Roman Empire fell, the heirs of these traditions- Rome in fact saved and respected the traditions of won people- there was not Rome and its civilisation any more. That's all.

I really believe that these Russians like Fomenko needed a little more of Marxism - to attach me to what Gabriel Rosas said- in order to delete all their fantasies....education makes miracles.

margherita

Gjiada wrote:
But this does not mean that it was deleted by the Church or by some king in order to hide some occult secret, this happens just in Da Vinci Code.

When it comes to history, the simplest solution glosses over the details. Even though much history is lost just in the way you describe, there were emperors in the past who made history in their own image and conquered civilizations often didn't get to pass on what they knew. This ends up being the same thing you describe. It is important to remember human nature because this will usually tell you what the most probable answer is. There were many competing religions around the time of Christ and not much tolerance of other ideas, so when the church established itself, it sought to replace the pagan religions of the past with it's own symbolism. Given that this is often the case in religion and that astrology has many of the characteristics of a belief system, it should not be surprising that the same thing has happened in the field of astrology. Whether it be by error of omission or sin by comission, the result is the same. There is no need to assassinate when the leader will drop dead on his own accord.

History is extremely detailed and involves a great many twists and turns than the general account usually gives. What happened between Galileo and the church as is often reported by scientists and those against the church versus what really happened (giving a different picture) is a case in point. Therefore "simple" or "Occam's Razor" is not a good match for the truth when it comes to history.

The thing about Fomenko isn't that he's disputing historical records, it's that he jumps to things like "Accounts of Jesus are actually such and such king and was actually crucified in the bosphorus in the 12th century". That's a stretch.

I remember years ago John Anthony West made claims about the Sphinx being older due to water erosion. I'm thinking great let's investigate further.

The he blows the whole thing by talking about Atlanteans.

I don't think you are going to bolster any arguments by citing Fomenko.

Mithra6 wrote: I remember years ago John Anthony West made claims about the Sphinx being older due to water erosion. I'm thinking great let's investigate further.

The he blows the whole thing by talking about Atlanteans.

If one thing is false then all things coming from that same source are false. Those in positions of power count on this dynamic to lull many into slumber which makes the task of governing easier. No need to pay any attention to the man behind the curtain.

In the case of West, it was also the fact that there was no other evidence of an earlier civilization and the fact that the Sphinx has a lot of collateral evidence pointing to the established theory.

Fomenko is another ball of wax. Granted I haven't read his books and my opinion thus far is based on a Wikipedia article, but the whole story seems convoluted and far-fetched. One example Wikipedia cites is the fact that we have Greek and Roman coins spread out from Britain to India. For Fomenko's theory to be correct, it would take a truly unrealistically vast conspiracy to accomplish that.

But I don't think this thread is about Fomenko.

Regarding Schmidt, I don't have any of his books (can't afford them), so I can't really argue any of his arguments. I don't really know if I even disagree with them since all I know is from 2nd and 3rd hand. I'd love a complete translation of Valens though.