Opponents can be honourable. Secret enemies may just be trying to screw up some aspect of your life. I get the 'people out to destroy you' thing, really, though there may be a better term for it.

Olivia wrote:Opponents can be honourable. Secret enemies may just be trying to screw up some aspect of your life. I get the 'people out to destroy you' thing, really, though there may be a better term for it.

So if say, Scorpio is in VI, or its ruler is in Aries, the ones out to destroy me are likely to have strong planets in those signs?

Thanks

I don't see why they would. Kind of like if you had Pisces on 7 it wouldn't mean that most people with a lot of planets in Pisces would want to marry you or go into business with you.

I get the 'people out to destroy you' thing, really, though there may be a better term for it.

Maybe 'drag you down' sums it up better. A sort of slow relentless destruction, rather than a direct conflict.

Hello,

Preamble:
The houses in aversion and opposition have made many of us confused over some of the meanings (and that includes me!) especially in the matters of enemies.

Houses in Opposition
The houses in opposition have meanings that are in "opposition" (like many modern and horary astrologers like to use in their delieneation). Examples:

1st house: me, 7th house: you
1st house: what is with me, 7th house: what is openly against me (my open enemies).
2nd house: my money, 8th house others' money
and so on and so forth...

However, I also think that houses in opposition should also include meanings that are "complementary". Examples:

1st house: me, 7th house: what complements me i.e. my spouse and associates
5th house: children (who is supposed to "sponsor" me when I get old in ancient times), 11th house: those who sponsor me i.e. my patrons.
and so on and so forth.

In aversion houses
The houses in aversion are the houses that the ascendant do not "see" (i.e. the traditional aspects, cnj, sxt, sqr, tri, opp). Houses in aversion are the 2nd, the 6th, the 8th and the 12th. These houses have no relationship meanings attached to them (unlike the houses that the ascendant sees). The houses that ascendant sees are 1st (myself), 3rd (my siblings and colleagues), 4th (my father), 5th (my children), 7th (my spouse and associates), 9th (my clerics, priests, or my "brothers" bound by religion/faith), the 10th (my king and boss, sometimes my mother) and 11th (my patrons, my friends). The sixth is not supposed to have significations of relationships and yet it is given as the house of servants. Why servants? Because in ancient times, the 6th is given to the slaves (no relationship connection to you directly). In fact in ancient Roman times, slaves were considered only sligtly better than animals (only that slaves were like animals who speak). It is a coincidence that the 6th house is given to "domesticated" animals later in the tradition!

Back to "enemies"
Enemies are given to the 6th, 7th and 12th houses. Traditional astrologers (following the medieval Arabs) use the 7th for open enemies and the 12th for secret enemies). Some Hellenistic astrologers only give enemies to the 6th (and belittle others who differentiate secret and open enemies). But they are different! A few Arab astrologers also put the 6th as the house of enemies.

Olivia wrote:

Rob Hand once told me (this was years ago, and I don't know if he still holds this view) that between his reading, experience of other people's charts, and his own chart, that 7 can be classified as 'opponents', 12 as 'secret enemies' and 6 as 'people who are out to destroy you'.

I think the concept of seeing (read aspecting) should be included in determining the meanings of the different types of enemies.

7th house as enemies
This is simple. Which house would you pick as enemies that you can identify and see? The 7th as it is opposed to you and you could see them.

6th and the 12th
The 6th and the 12th are enemies you could not see (or identify). The 12th house are enemies that know you personally (but you don't identify them as enemies) and want to harm you secretly [see the interesting passage on secret enemies and 12th house in Bonatti's chapter on 12th house in Liber Astronomiae]. The 6th house are your enemies that you could not see and do not know you personally, yet they wish harm on you e.g. those who are after you job and not you personally or your body (like illness) and not really you! (the illnes is after a part of your body, nothing personal).

Hi Astrojin

I think you have made some good points. This thread has included phrases like ?those who are out to get me?, so I personally don?t see any confusion in regard to which house would describe that ? the 7th house pure and simple. But that needs qualifying with the rest of the comments you have made.

As a general theme, the symbolic principles attached to the 6th house are not so much connected to the issues of focused attack or wilful destruction, as there being a lack of vital support. It is a passively debilitating area rather than an actively destroying one. On the other hand, the western angle has always been treated as capable of describing people, events or times of destruction ? I have found that to be the case in all the sources I have read, and most certainly in the western tradition as a whole. However, what I haven?t come across in my reading is this:

Some Hellenistic astrologers only give enemies to the 6th (and belittle others who differentiate secret and open enemies).

So I find that comment especially interesting and wonder if you could give your sources for that attitude being expressed?

Thanks again for your post
Deb

PS - of course, this is throwing all the emphasis to the signification of houses, whereas the afflicting planet is probably the biggest indicator of this kind of trouble.

Hello,

Hello Deb,

Quote:

From Astrojin
Some Hellenistic astrologers only give enemies to the 6th (and belittle others who differentiate secret and open enemies).

From Deb
So I find that comment especially interesting and wonder if you could give your sources for that attitude being expressed?

I am very sorry for making my comments ambiguous or vague. I did not mean the ancient Hellenistic Astrologers, I was referring to the modern Hellenistic astrologers i.e. those contemporary modern astrologers who studied Hellenistic astrology and think that medieval and traditional are all impure forms of astrology and any perceived "deviations" from Hellenistic astrology (observed in the other forms of astrology) should be discarded. Sometimes they forget that deviations are simply improvements! These people reason that just because some ancient Hellenistic astrologers assigned 6th to the enemies (which a few medieval arabic astrologers also noted), the 12th and the 7th are not to be used to signify enemies at all. They also reason that open and secret enemies are one and the same thing (enemies). In their forums (which I don't want to mention here) they belittle the medieval astrologers who differentiate open and secret enemies. But the open and secret enemies are different! The traditional astrologers have successfully used the 7th as open enemies for a very long time (as in horary where a thieve is represented by a peregrine planet in the 7th - among others). For some of these modern Hellenistic astrologers, enemies are represented by the 6th house only (though some of them still give the 12th as house of enemies). In fact some of them argue over using the 6th as the only house of enemies because the 6th is "worse" than the 12th because the 6th is in aversion as well as below the horizon sinking into oblivion.

The 6th and the 12th have always been the most elusive houses to interpret. We see again and again planets located in the 12th house to be quite effective and both houses can still mean good things (depending on situation). All astrologers seem to agree that they are weak houses because they are cadent (aka cadent from angles). Many astrologers also consider the 6th and the 12th evil houses as they are in aversion to ascendant AND they represent the evils in life (6th = evil fortune and 12th = evil spirit). The problems seem to appear when they try to quantify (rather than qualify these houses - which the ancients have already done superbly). They start asking which house is weaker - the 6th or the 12th? Which house is more evil - the 6th or the 12th? The answer (as all correct answers should be is - it depends!). There are many other conditions, both essentially and accidentally, that can tip the strength/weakness or beneficence/maleficence of planets located in any house.

All other things being equal (ceteris paribus):
Arguments for 12th to be stronger than the 6th:
1. The 12th rises whereas the 6th sets by primary motion.
2. The 12th is above whereas the 6th is below the horizon.

Argument for 6th house to better than the 12th:
The 6th is trine to the 10th and the 12th is sextile to the 10th. Trines are better than sextiles.
Observe that I use the term "better" because I do not think that good aspects to the 10th makes the 6th stronger. "Better" here means better for planets that have significance of the 10th to be in the 6th (not just any planet).

Which house then is more evil - the 6th and the 12th? This is where qualification is important. It's probably better not to try to answer this question as the evils produced by these houses are not the same. The 12th is evil spirit and the 6th is evil fortune. The evil spirit delivers evils that comes from demons (greek and roman), satans (medieval) or your own spirit. It is very appropriate for the modern astrologers to assign the 12th as the house of undoing (or sins) as it is our own spirit that makes us do things that we regret later. The evils of the 6th are more ruled by fortunes (albeit evil fortunes) - evil things that befall a native like illnesses, accidents, labors, etc. As such, it is difficult to differentiate the magnitude of the evils of both houses.

As for enemies, I still think that the 12th, the 6th and the 7th can all be used with the provison that one be diligent with the different significations.

From Deb

PS - of course, this is throwing all the emphasis to the signification of houses, whereas the afflicting planet is probably the biggest indicator of this kind of trouble.

I couldn't agree more!

I had no idea these kinds of discussions were going on! When you mentioned Hellenistic astrologers in your post, I thought you meant the ancient astrologers. I was thinking that there may have been were some newly unearthed references.

those contemporary modern astrologers who studied Hellenistic astrology and think that medieval and traditional are all impure forms of astrology and any perceived "deviations" from Hellenistic astrology (observed in the other forms of astrology) should be discarded.

I don?t understand this mentality. It sounds like they make more time for arguments than study.

These people reason that just because some ancient Hellenistic astrologers assigned 6th to the enemies (which a few medieval arabic astrologers also noted), the 12th and the 7th are not to be used to signify enemies at all.

Turning to my nearest relevant text ? Firmicus ? I find:

?from one sign to another which is the seventh sign is the opposition. This is always an unfavourable and threatening sign.? II.XXII.2

And it is very revealing to compare how Firmicus describes the unfortunate power of Mars in the 6th house, against the truly dreadful potential of Mars in the 7th house.

Of the 6th house he writes (III.IV.16):

Mars in the sixth house indicates many evils. He will be harmful to children and make illnesses and many reverses in life, according to the nature of the signs. In crooked signs he makes for an early death and sometimes produces cripples or hunchbacks. In this house all kinds of afflictions are indicated if Mars is located exactly in the sign.

The above is 62 words. He then goes on to write about 500 words concerning the influence of Mars in the 7th house, including comments such as:

The native will encounter accusations, chains, prisons, condemnations on capital charges. Or he is forced to meet wild beasts, is thrown over a precipice, or severely wounded in domestic plots, or killed by bandits. Or he is drowned in a shipwreck. All these are decided by the signs. For if Mars is in an earth sign the native is forced to meet wild beasts; in fixed signs he is crushed by ruins or thrown over a precipice; in watery signs he perishes in a boat; in human signs he is killed by a sword. ? Thus Mars in this house destroys man in every way. Before the last day of his life the native will have activities connected either with fire, weapons, or violence of some kind, or torture or homicide..
[this is all according to other indications, of course!]

And then, regarding the Sun, we have:

20. The Sun in the seventh house indicates great afflictions and illnesses, especially if Mars and Saturn are with him or in any aspect. The illnesses follow the nature of the malefic planets. ? But if in addition Mars and Saturn are in the second or the eighth house all honours, positions, and posts are lost, either through enemy tribes, personal enemies, or competitors. There is also indication of captivity, exile, or suicide.

The snips means that the comments shouldn?t be taken up without reading what Firmicus has to say in full ? but it seems enough to show that people who guffaw about the impurities of Arabian and medieval astrology, etc, must be as closed-minded in their approach to their preferred period as they are to the others.

As for enemies, I still think that the 12th, the 6th and the 7th can all be used with the provison that one be diligent with the different significations.

I understand your point entirely.

Thanks for explaining everything. I?m glad that we see things pretty much along the same lines. Astrologers try to squeeze things into neatly segregated compartments via the houses but nothing is black and white, as you say - it's all about context.

Deb

Hello astrojin!

astrojin wrote:... I was referring to the modern Hellenistic astrologers i.e. those contemporary modern astrologers who studied Hellenistic astrology and think that medieval and traditional are all impure forms of astrology and any perceived "deviations" from Hellenistic astrology (observed in the other forms of astrology) should be discarded.

<cough> That is quite the generalization, btw. What I would say is that there have often been changes to astrological doctrine and rarely are those changes based in empirical, or even clear reasoning. This demands examination. We are fortunate to live in a time that where many, many translations have been and are being made available, so this work of the re-evaluation of all astrological values can proceed.

astrojin wrote: Sometimes they forget that deviations are simply improvements!

Really? I do not often agree with that proposition.

astrojin wrote: These people reason that just because some ancient Hellenistic astrologers assigned 6th to the enemies (which a few medieval arabic astrologers also noted), the 12th and the 7th are not to be used to signify enemies at all.

Well, putting aside "These People" for the moment, the way I currently understand the matter, the 6th and 12th signs give significations for the topic of enemies. The 6th shows public, or better said communial enemies; for example, I'm an American, al-Queda is the enemy of the U.S.A. (along with probably all decent people), therefore they would be a 6th sign type of enemy. If someone was going after me in particular, they would be 12th sign private enemies.

Now the 7th is a interesting and convoluted ball of wax ...

astrojin wrote: ... We see again and again planets located in the 12th house to be quite effective and both houses can still mean good things (depending on situation).

This is a very important point, since it completely undermines:

astrojin wrote: All astrologers seem to agree that they are weak houses because they are cadent ...

I think that this idea that some houses are "weak" and others are "strong" is symptomatic of the simpleminded empiricism that has afflicted astrology for quite some time, and made it very easy to throw the entire edifice of astrology into the ashheap of history, since it frankly doesn't work, not at least in this simple framing of "strong/weak".

Hi Deb!

As your quotes of Firmicus on planets in the 7th show, that sign has a strong correlation to death and disaster (how marriage fits in there I'll leave to all you poor wedded folks out there ). This is part of why, in my thinking, the 7th gets assigned enemies starting in the medieval period; the fact that disagreeable people sometimes attempt to kill you. I seem to recall Ben Dykes mentioning something about this in his intro to Sahl & Masha'allah, but that could also be the lack of caffeine, I'll have to take a look when I get the chance.

I think that this idea that some houses are "weak" and others are "strong" is symptomatic of the simpleminded empiricism that has afflicted astrology for quite some time

I'd really like to explore this argument in an open-minded way because I consider myself quite well read with regard to the ancient authors, but I seem to be missing this very strong emphasis on the 6th house as *the* house of *the enemy*. It may be that I'm missing something important - or it could be that some people are trying to make tight definitions out of passages that are not as explicit as they assume they are. What would help is if we were able to focus the discussion upon referenced points in ancient charts or texts. I don't think it helps at all to debate 'modern-Hellenistic' opinion.

But Gabe, why do you think that the idea that some houses are stronger than others is simpleminded? As a result of my experience and research, I see this as one of the most fundamental, ancient, and reliable principles of astrology, and one that I am very keen to stress to my students - that the 'places' of heaven are descriptive of certain principles, people or things, *because* of the way that they bring planets to prominence and efficacy (or not). Our oldest source, Manilius, stresses how the angles and their associated places make the planets powerful:

"These points are charged with exceptional powers, and the influence they exert on fate is the greatest known to our science, because the celestial circle is totally held in position by them as by eternal supports". (Astronomica, II.801)

And he stresses how the places bring out or deny the potency of the planets that pass through them, such as:

"Each of the signs, as it revolves, receives the influence of Heaven and to Heaven imparts its own. The nature of the position prevails, exercises jurisdiction within its province, and subjects to its own the character of the signs as they pass by, which now are enriched with distinction of every kind, and now bear the penalty of a barren abode.
(II v.860)

Perhaps I misunderstand you.

With regard to the Firmicus quote, I think that has already shown enemies were not exclusively assigned to the 7th by medieval astrologers, since we even encountered the phrase "through enemy tribes, personal enemies, or competitors. There is also indication of captivity, exile, or suicide".

I have frequently encountered the descendant being termed the "hostile western angle' in ancient texts, or the angle from which we experience attack; and let's remember that term 'occident' (west) comes from the Latin occidere, which means 'to perish' or 'be destroyed'. Ptolemy says that we judge the length of life by connection with this angle because it is destructive and kills even the light of day.

So there is no doubt in my mind that the descendant, and the associated 7th place presented a major theme of signification for enemies, those that attack us, and situations that place us at peril. This is not to suggest that the 6th was not a place of 'evil' influence too, but as I pointed out earlier, the 6th house is passive in its influence, whereas the 7th house is active. So those that actually attack are more naturally signified by the 7th house according to the ancient philosophy which gives the places their meanings.

I think it would be great if we identified important areas where more research is needed in this thread - one thing this forum has taught me, is how much we can learn when we exchange ideas (or even arguments) with others. So I am trying to stay open-minded too; which, for a Taurean, is quite hard.

My regards,
Deb

PS ? the attachment of spouses and enemies to the same place is very sensible to me. Its not just about enemies, its about the external forces that impact upon our boundaries ? we must ?engage? and surmount (or be surmounted) and either destroy or amalgamate. Hence ?all?s fair in love and war? ? a phrase that most women have learned to respect.

Is this possibly an error more in reading comprehension, or maybe expression, than understanding?

The houses are the houses are the houses. By themselves - nothing could happen. I think perhaps the 'shorthand' of weak and strong comes by what happens when a planet is put in or aspects a house.

We can see the 7th house. That's why opponents, open enemies (people making war on us), people suing us, etc. are there - and that's another shorthand. Nobody ever meant they literally LIVE in the 7th house.

But the planets in 6 and 12 are the ones we CAN'T see. And that's where the concept of weakness comes from. They're blind spots to us. How much control over your life do you have when you're born or sold into slavery, or when illness strikes, for a couple of examples of 6th house woes? Not a whole lot.

The same with the 12th and secret enemies - they're secret. And very few of us are aware of our own self-undoing, either.

Yet the houses themselves are neither weak nor strong, they're just divisions of the sky.

I'm also a bit caffeine deprived this morning, so forgive if I've not made a lot of sense here. I'm simply wondering if it's the language that's led to some of the misunderstanding.