Hi Yuzuru

Deb wrote:If a house signification is valid, then surely it stacks up in all branches of astrology? What applies in horary should apply in natal and electional and mundane astrology too. We wouldn?t say that a friend is eleventh house for natal work but not for mundane astrology. Instead we assume that since the 11th house is a friend or a friendly situation in the nativity, then it will signify a friendly nation or friendly assistance in mundane work too.

I?m going to stand by this comment, even though I agree with you too

Yuzuru wrote:For instance, I can use, in horary, the 2nd from 11th to find a lost object of my friend... to try to use any of this derivative simbolism in a natal chart is bound to make the astrology crazy.

Yes, the 12th is the 2nd from the 11th both in natal and in horary, but in horary we have a very clear application, and in natal it would be at least difficult to try to see the money of our friend based on our own natal charts.

I think this is a bit off the point, because using derived house meanings is a technique that extends from house signification. I?m not sure it is as necessary or effective in horary astrology as many students believe. However, I wasn?t saying that the use of the houses in horary should be the same as the use in mundane work ? my point was that the basic and fundamental signification of each house is generated by something essential about that place in the celestial sphere, and that is as consistent across all branches of astrology, as the signification of a planet or sign. A medical expert would apply different techniques and use the signification in a different way to a financial expert, but the two branches still draw from the same root.

Yuzuru wrote:The same way I have used with very success the 7th to represent enemies in horaries, but in natal work aspects of the 7th house seens to be usually about relationships (not always tough - at least one natal chart had a lot to say about legal quarrels)

I agree. Steven makes a similar point so I?ll comment on his post too.

Hi Steven

I deleted a final comment in my post yesterday, saying that, again, I?m uncomfortable ascribing purely to the houses something that was traditionally assigned to afflicting planets in suitable or effective places. I deleted it because my post was already so long. But, yes, I take your point that looking at house significations alone doesn?t allow us to realise when and where the signification becomes valid.

Steven wrote:If I have Jupiter in the 7th and it is in a good aspect with the ruler of the ascendant then why would I say it is an enemy? It is more likely someone I get along well with and is a "partner" instead of enemy.

I can?t see any situation where such a planet would describe an enemy. In fact, if it did correspond with the presence of a supposed enemy, I would say that the enemy turns out to be honourable and helpful. The presence of a malefic planet in the 7th, or the 7th ruled by a malefic that is essentially debilitated/accidentally weak gives signification of the relationships based on enmity. One way to tell whether a new relationship or partnership will be a positive one or not is to judge by the nature of the 7th-house planet.

I think your example was perfect for showing how the planets and various houses should be read together and not in isolation. From what I understand your client has Saturn ruling the 11th house of friends, and this is placed in the 12th house ? a perfect description of the natal ?promise? that supposed friends could seek to undo him (and not necessarily directly or openly, so he may not recognise the traps he falls into). But the dramatic event happened when Saturn transited the 7th in square to his ascendant-ruler. That?s when it all came out into the open and he had to confront the issue. That's when he saw his friend in a new light - as the opponent/enemy - (whichever word works best).

I?m not sure that we are disagreeing about anything actually, I?m happy to talk about the 7th being ?opponents and oppositions? and ?relationships? generally because that gives a broader sense of what the house is about.

Deb

Hello
From Steven

It is a house indicating oppositions and opponents. But that by itself does nothing to describe or specify an enemy. Not in natal astrology!

Agreed! In natal or horary we look to the 7th (or whichever house) to find areas of life that are of concern e.g. the second house for finance (not the one who give finance), the 4th house for matters concerning father (not the father per se) and the 7th house for matters concerning disputations, wars, contentions, "open enemies" (not the enemies themselves). The person involved can be planets in those houses, ruler(s) of the houses or almuten of the houses (wherever appropriate as significations). I think that the experienced astrologers here would be able to differentiate the nouns, adjectives and verbs of the art of astro-logos (for astrology is the logos of the stars). What I am arguing is against those who say that you don't even consider 7th house as matters concerning "open enemies" or similar significations.

deb wrote: I can?t see any situation where such a planet [Jupiter well-placed in re to 1R in 7th] would describe an enemy. In fact, if it did correspond with the presence of a supposed enemy, I would say that the enemy turns out to be honourable and helpful. The presence of a malefic planet in the 7th, or the 7th ruled by a malefic that is essentially debilitated/accidentally weak gives signification of the relationships based on enmity. One way to tell whether a new relationship or partnership will be a positive one or not is to judge by the nature of the 7th-house planet.

I think your example was perfect for showing how the planets and various houses should be read together and not in isolation. From what I understand your client has Saturn ruling the 11th house of friends, and this is placed in the 12th house ? a perfect description of the natal ?promise? that supposed friends could seek to undo him (and not necessarily directly or openly, so he may not recognise the traps he falls into). But the dramatic event happened when Saturn transited the 7th in square to his ascendant-ruler. That?s when it all came out into the open and he had to confront the issue. That's when he saw his friend in a new light - as the opponent/enemy - (whichever word works best).

I think you said it exactly here, Deb. The 7th is other people?especially the most important one or ones, the domestic partner or the business partners?or the public if you open a storefront and invite the public in or stand on a stage and, for example, sing to them. But what kind of people are they? And how do they relate with the native and the native with them?something seen in the house and how the house sits in the native?s world among houses, signs and planets.

In the usual case, among the most important other people in a life is a personal or business partner?even if a partner who turns against the native, or was against the native in fact in a hidden way from the get go?as with Steven?s client with natal 11R in the 12th?promising that those who come in the guise of friends (and elder siblings) likely will undermine the native?at a time when the natal promise is realized.

In Jyotish the 6th is called shatru ?enemies.? Its most basic meanings in the Jyotish lineage in which I work are enemies, litigation, debt, illness (esp. acute or less serious), poisons (things toxic to the body), competitors, subordinates, victories and defeats, routines, injuries, wounds, small animals. The 7th is a house of war natally in Jyotish. Hitler?s chart is a good example.

The 6th also has the reflected meanings of the 12th, as all opposite houses do.


As others have mentioned, the words are interesting?and potentially?even if we were dealing with only one language or one era of its use or one culture using it?confusing. Abu Ma?shar never would use the word ?enemy? because he didn?t write in modern English.

An enemy is a person who is not a friend?from Latin inimicus?where in- is a negative prefix and amicus is ?friend.? (In Spanish, amigo and enemigo, and so on) A stranger is an outsider (related to ?extraneous?), and a guest is even worse?from Latin hostis, originally ?stranger?, in classical use ?enemy? and related to the word ?hostile??and also hostel, hotel and hospital (12th).

We do tend to wonder whether the ones showing up in our lives as others will be friendly and whether they will be friends, neutrals, or not-friends. Not-friends could be perfectly benign, perhaps indifferent. Friends care and behave accordingly. If they don?t and take away your magazine, they?re not-friends?even if they sneaked in through the house of friends. ?Friend? is from the Teutonic frij?jan, ?to love,? and means according to the dictionary ?one joined to another in mutual benevolence and intimacy.?

yuzuru wrote: For instance, I can use, in horary, the 2nd from 11th to find a lost object of my friend... to try to use any of this derivative simbolism in a natal chart is bound to make the astrology crazy.

Yes, the 12th is the 2nd from the 11th both in natal and in horary, but in horary we have a very clear application, and in natal it would be at least difficult to try to see the money of our friend based on our own natal charts.

Most questions clients ask can be answered in natal astrology with derived houses. I would definitely see the friends? money in natal astrology in the native?s 12th (the friends? 2nd) their actions, destiny, honors and career in the native?s 8th (friends? 10th), and so on. You can see all the native?s significant others in a natal chart, and the others? worlds as they play in the native?s world. To me, this is the living heart of astrology.

Suddenly, the astrological chart looks more and more like the native?s world and the important things and people in it in their multifarious and multilayered and interacting relationships. There are actually 144 houses in the wheel of houses. And the challenge is to sort through the many things that can be said to the few that need to be said at a given time.

Placed in the natal figure?in the context of all houses that are relevant to the matter in question essentially or accidentally, of how the planets and signs play through the houses, and of the whole dynamic wheel of houses?who the others are in the native?s world becomes clear. They might be friends and they might be enemies. They might be a delight to the native, or a source of endless trouble?or likely something in between, or some of each.

penny

Hello astrojin!

My point is that astrological delineation isn't easy, and that trying to craft a "beginner's approach" is going to be detrimental in the long run, as it will guide the practitioner to not think deeply about what is going on in the chart but to use simple thinking, like "good" and "bad", that I don't think really captures what the natal chart describes.

astrojin wrote:...the 3rd is the worst of the good houses and best of the bad houses ? but this is explaining away, it still begs the question ? why?

I don't recall a specific textual reference off the top of my head. My take would be to begin with look at the prototypal 3rd sign in the Thema Mundi, Virgo, and the nature of its domicile lord and exalted ruler Mercury.

Gabe

To Gabe,

astrojin wrote:
...the 3rd is the worst of the good houses and best of the bad houses ? but this is explaining away, it still begs the question ? why?

I heard this from one of Schmidt's oral presentation but I just can't remember which one.
Are you saying that we should use the thema mundi together with the doctrine of the good/bad houses (those that are configured and not configured to ascendant) and doctrine of the busy houses (angular, succedent, cadent) to determine the profitable houses? That's interesting. Let me meditate on this!

I think the lecture you're talking about is posted on the Astrologia Medieval site. I seem to recall something about the 8th being a bad house but a profitable place for a planet to do business, anyway.

astrojin wrote: Rhetorius drops the 3rd house from being profitable/effective. Why is this? Some modern Hellenistic astrologers quote Schmidt saying that the 3rd is the worst of the good houses and best of the bad houses ? but this is explaining away, it still begs the question ? why?

This makes me think about the list of houses given by IbnEzra or William Lilly.
According IbnEzra (translated by Zoller) in Almuten calculation the third house takes 3 points, it is after the 8th and only before the 12th which takes 2 and the 6th which takes 1.

In my opinion a planet in a cadent house is not weak, it cannot declare in a proper way what it means.
In every case, I agree with you that we should consider many factors - hairesis, essential dignity, heliacal phases and so on.
margherita

My only point was directed towards finding the "essence" of how the ancients saw the houses significations rather than the rather modern practice of labeling. The 7th being opponents, oppositions and relationships is more than a broad sense, it is what I would call its essence through which everything concerning that house is seen.

That?s also been my point too Steven. That?s why I think it is important to keep in mind that the descendant has always been considered, potentially, a very hostile angle which can bring both conflict and destruction. When a malefic planet contacts a significator from this place it has a powerful expression. In regard to timing, this will show the rise of the opponent. I don?t see how the use of the term 'enemy' in this sense is misusing the philosophical foundation of astrology at all.
In regard to the philosphies of Pythagorus, Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus and the Stoics, etc., the 7th house corresponds to the divisive qualities of the Duad, which breaks the circle into two halves and destroys the unity of the Monad, bringing the need to engage with antagonistic forces.
Maybe the word 'enemy' is getting too much attention in this thread? I think we all realise that an opponent is not always a hostile enemy; but that's usually the person who steals our attention.

Regards
Deb

I think I see. So is your argument that it is just as misleading to hang the label 'marriage' on the 7th house, as it is to hang the label 'open enemies', since not every relationship leads to marriage?

There is the potential for problem with all labels and keywords because they can only become representative of the understanding that lies behind them. This neatly fits in with another point I've been meaning to come back to ...

... I personally think the word 'strong' or 'effective' is just as appropriate a keyword for the angular houses as the term 'profitable' - for example a malefic on the MC will deny profit because it is made more effective. It will be more profitable in fulfilling its intention to destroy, yes, but what we are talking about is not self-evident in the word 'profitable'. If the argument is against the use of simplistic keywords, then why try to swap one for another? (That's not directed at you Steven - I'm just speaking out loud, with various thoughts) ...

I thought Penny made some good points about the use of ancient terminology. I agree that the specific words used are important, but what matters most is the meaning behind the words.

Hi Steven,

Well, this is where you are wrong and let me try and explain why. My teacher, Robert Zoller once wrote;

The two quotations from Hand and Zoller are quite useless in our arguments here as they are trying to teach us english more than astrology (at least in those 2 quotes where people always say that what they write is not what they mean, etc.). You are are my opponent and so I still consider you my "open enemy" (in this matter of course, not in general) and will still assign you the 7th. I think you would do the same because although you don't consider me as your "enemy" - rather an opponent, you would still assign me to the 7th! In this case we would agree on something (albeit via different routes). I don't think your teacher (a Latin scholar) knows enough arabic (let alone privy to the arabic materials) to tell us what an arabic word means.

just wanted to chime in-
this is a great discussion and I've taken alot of information from it.
thanks to all involved!
Taking such an indepth look at one topical house has opened up my view of the houses, thanks again!