Hello Rob,

I certainly don't need to "debate."

We share what we see happening and we move forward, hopefully progressing as time moves on...

Re: "The problem is why would any of these PDs mean the event occured?"

If Saturn and Sun in square seem irrelevant to someone needing heart surgery, then we have different ideas about Astrology's key symbols; but that's okay.

Which planets and which aspect would have made you go, yeah, heart surgery "fits" the symbols?

Re: Morin

I have nothing against Morin, there is much to learn from that source, though of course not all of his theories stand up to empirical criticism.

Rob, I already HAVE two pieces of software that calculate Topocentric Primary Directions... I don't NEED your software. I only offered the suggestion, because I am positive that it adds to the VALUE of your software. If you put them in or not, I don't personally benefit one way or another. Others can. It is in that spirit, that I commented.

The fact that you are considering putting them in does make me happy. Thank you on behalf of those who will reap benefit.

Take care,

Peace

Atlantean

Atlantean wrote:Hello Rob,

I certainly don't need to "debate."
Directions... I don't NEED your software.

Atlantean

Hi Atlantean,

I am pleased to hear these things.
There are much more PDs in every PD-systems then events in a persons life (even without terms and fixstars). I am sure that this is also true in case the TPDs.
If the TPDs are this exact then you can predict everything e.g. in Clinton's life(exact PDs).

About the Sun quadrat Saturn:
You are a tricky person, because you hide this important PD among PDs like: something sesquiquadrat D --> something
Yes that important PD can mean it, but as I mentioned above: if you take a look at every Topocentric PDs in Clinton's chart you will find that there are a lot of PDs that produced no events.
In my opinion Morin's method expains this.

Good luck with the TPDs,
rob

Hello Rob,

Please, please...don't say things that make your whole case look shaky.

I listed five Topocentric Primary Directions and ONE of them was highlighted.

How, good Lord, can one TPD highlighted in a list of only 5, be a "tricky" me hiding it???

The highlighting de-emphasized it?

Even in your quote of me, it stands out, even in the tiny print.

Hiding it? That's just silly, Rob

Part of what you said IS correct. There are many primary directions that occur. The thing is...when there is an accumulation of them, events DO happen. If the Sun square Saturn sat by itself, perhaps nothing would happen. When coupled with the others (as in the list), almost always something important happens. If we don't hang on any particular aspect and instead process them all as a unified statement, we see Truth.

If we give Morin credit as a very, very good Astrologer (and why wouldn't he be with Jupiter conjunct Uranus in the 1st House in Aquarius in his Epoch?), then the fact that he put Primary Directions at the top of his list is telling.

[If we look at his Mercury conjunct Uranus and the telling trine (almost EXACT, but only in Topocentric ) to the 3rd House, we can see his scientific mind applied to Astrology]

You mentioned that many TPD's come and go in Clinton's life with no events.... I am now looking back over his life for these obvious accumulations that occur and seeing if there are any where symbolically connected events did NOT happen.

Tying them to Solars seems an interesting proposition. Certainly, it is worth looking at... Are the Solars that you mentioned precessed or relocated? I want to make sure that we are looking at the same things, initially.

Take care,

Atlantean

Hi Atlantean,

Well, I read lines one after another and the very first PD was what I call trash-PD(minor aspect). Had you not included them with the quadrat-PD, I wouldn't have said anything.
I am not against the TPDs, but you sound as if you didn't need the radix chart at all. You just take a look at the list of PDs and then find the PD AFTER the event happend.
The medieval astrologers made predictions(they said what will happen and when before the event happend). A lot of astrologers can explain why something happend after it happend.
In order to predict something one needs to know what(the potencials) is in the radix.
They all delineated the radix before making predictions.
If one wanted to predict what will happen in the next five years in Clinton's life then it would be really difficult without knowing "what" is in his radix.
If one uses the minor aspects too, then there are numerous PDs per every year.

You need to read Morin if you want to know his method.
I have Astrologia Gallica 21(The Morinus System of Horoscope Interpretation), 22(Directions) (both Holden's translation). Directions(Book 22) is about Regiomontanian PDs but there is a chapter "Judgements of revolutions".
Unfortunately I don't have AG 23: Revolutions.

Again: I am not against the TPD but first comes the radix. I hardly believe that everybody who goes like "PDs! PDs!" can delineate a radix chart properly.

rob

Sorry, AG 21 was translated by Richard S. Baldwin.

Hello Rob,

Good points...

The reason that they were in the order that they were, was because of tightest orb listed first. Of course, the tighter the orb, the less the chances of coincidence. This is a given.

Re: Trash PD's

As the appropriate aspects in this system were arrived at empirically, ie. hundreds of charts, thousands of events, tens of thousands of aspects... we are forced to take what IS, as opposed perhaps to what we would have liked there to have been.

If we look at someone's primary directions at the date that they had a terrible accident and we see Uranus semisquare Mars at 0? 1' orb...then it would be incredibly foolhardy to dismiss it or to think of it as irrelevant. The true symbology and tightness of orb indicates AGAINST coincidence by these very factors.

To call them trash PD's, only indicates that life does not fit so neatly into pre-conceived notions... or more succinctly, that we must ever be willing to temper what we think we know, with what we ACTUALLY find. Morin isn't around to change his mind...it is virtually assured that he would will that his "followers" be willing to adapt to empiricism.

Thank you for the Morin references. I am very curious to read them. (of course, with a very large grain of salt as it's impossible to conceive that nothing of note has occurred in the meantime to cast things in an altered light)

His notion that the rulers of the 1st and 7th or their dispositers are ALWAYS involved in cases of death, is provably wrong. We must watch for these types of things, otherwise we are basically unadapting lemmings. I would hate to be considered in that light.

Morin ever seemed (to me and my admitted limited experience studying him) to be interested in cutting the old chaff from the true wheat of astrology. I feel secure in my opinion that he would certainly experiment with the Topocentric Primary Directions, since the cusps are "hot".

Re: "I hardly believe that everybody who goes like "PDs! PDs!" can delineate a radix chart properly."

Of course, and in just the same way that someone who CAN delineate a natal chart properly could easily miss the relevance, of say, a Sun square Saturn direction.

Take care,

Peace

Atlantean

Primary directions are overrated

I support this. I think that until over a century ago they where the most popular technique simply because they are one of the easiest to calculate prediction techniques in astrology.

Eddy wrote:

Primary directions are overrated

I support this. I think that until over a century ago they where the most popular technique simply because they are one of the easiest to calculate prediction techniques in astrology.

You mean as compared to profections, firdaria, transits, and suchlike feats of advanced calculation?

Hello Steven,

Re: ...perhaps time to move on...

I agree with you.

It seems pointless to continue discussing this in the manner that it was progressing, since as you astutely noticed, we basically have a difference of opinion and no way to really resolve it. We have a fundamentally different perspective.

You have made a few points and though I don't want to argue about it, (for pretty much the same reason that Rob's and my discussion "fizzled"), I would like to make a couple of comments. There are no "barbs" in this post. Only clear articulation of my perspective for mutual understanding.

As for minor aspects being aspects, that is something we won't agree on, no matter what, so I won't belabor the point. I will only say that, in Topocentric Primary Directions, they are very obviously involved in events. This is an empirical, provable, comment. You don't use Topocentric Primary Directions, so we can't compare my apples to your oranges.

The issue of Saturn squaring Sun as an indicator of heart surgery, though it seems obvious to me, perhaps understanding that in Clinton's epoch chart that Saturn is in detriment and ruling the 8th House, maybe it's connection is more "plausible" to the specifics of your chosen system.

Re: Traditional Astrology

In the Traditional Astrology thread, I would EXPECT that outside opinions about things would tend to be disallowed. (in the same way that "I love meat" comments would get deleted on the PETA website) In the News, Notices...etc. section, I would not EXPECT such intensive filtering or disallowing of alternative perspective. If it IS so, then so it is. I will accept it. I am only stating that I didn't expect it.

Re: "...you can't just make up symbolism as you go...."

I am NOT a traditional astrologer, I do not specifically know what you will say rules what. Please excuse my ignorance of that topic. What I have been using, works for me, and so I continue to use it. To me, the heart seems to fit Sun rulership. Issues of blockage, restriction (you know the kinds of things a heart stent would be installed to counteract) seem to be purely Saturn.

Now, please, for only a moment, think of this in terms of probabilities and coincidence.

(to me) The symbolism IS correct. If you said PREVIOUSLY that Bob Jones needed a heart stent, Saturn and Sun are the first two planets that *I* would contemplate. That is perhaps coincidence #1.

Next, not only is this an aspect, this once in a lifetime aspect happens to occur at the same exact time (during the week) that he DOES need the surgery. That is perhaps coincidence #2.

Additionally, the orb of this aspect is 0? 1' of arc or 1/21,600th of a circle. ie. there are tens of thousands of OTHER places that the Sun could be and NOT be in that type of tight aspect with the Sun, but it ISN'T. This can be coincidence #3.

If we take the odds of my predefined symbolism being there and multiply that by the odds that it just happens to occur RIGHT when the surgery was necessary and THEN multiply that miniscule percentage by the probability of it being to that specific an orb, we have odds well on the order of "win the state lottery from a single ticket".

In other words, the odds that the Sun square Saturn primary direction is unrelated to the heart surgery are infinitesimal, purely on mathematical probability terms.

Peace

Atlantean

* For those who haven't studied the mathematics behind probabilities, when there are three mutually exclusive events that all must simultaneously happen, the probability is calculated as the probability of Part I mutliplied by the probability of Part II multiplied by the probability of Part III. Think of flipping a coin... and demanding three heads in a row... 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 or 1/8... ie. 12.5% We can see this is correct as the possibilities are visible:

H H H
H H T
H T H
H T T
T H H
T H T
T T H
T T T

There were 8 ways it COULD go...and only 1 that satisfied our criterion.

Martin Gansten wrote:

Eddy wrote:

Primary directions are overrated

I support this. I think that until over a century ago they where the most popular technique simply because they are one of the easiest to calculate prediction techniques in astrology.

You mean as compared to profections, firdaria, transits, and suchlike feats of advanced calculation?

Well, if I look at the definitions of profections and firdar these are even easier than pd's, just rotate the chart along the axis of the ecliptic respectively add/subtract.

For the primary directions one needs only to apply some napierian formulae with a pocket calculator and voil? one can calculate all directions to high exactness that will occur in a lifetime in just one day's work. Once you have a natal chart (and perhaps the chart of the next day to interpolate when you use secondary motion), then the rest is relatively easy.

Transits (and to a lesser extent the secondary progressions) need a much more advanced mathematics. Jean Meeus book 'Astronomical Algorithms' explains it, but here you can also see the required formulae online http://stjarnhimlen.se/comp/ppcomp.html . With a pocket calculator it perhaps will cost a whole day to get the positions of the planets for just one certain date, not to mention all transits in a lifetime. I calculated only my natal planets (Sun to Saturn) and it already took me a couple of afternoons.

Quite an elaborate task but it commands respect for the work and one realises that using transits is more than 'just looking in the ephemeris'.

Luke Broughton commented on Chaney's work to make an ephemeris covering the 19th century.

"No one", Broughton remarked later of his colleague, "who does not understand astrology and mathematical astronomy, can have any idea of the amount of labor it takes to calculate back for fifty or a hundred years the longitude, latitude of the Moon, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and the planet Uranus, to the degree and minute for each day of the year: also of the declination and the right ascension of the Sun in degrees and minutes for each day for that length of time."

Source: Benson Bobrick 'The Fated Sky', p.261.

Admittedly, I usually also look 'just' in the ephemeris .

Hi Rob,

rob wrote:Unfortunately I don't have AG 23: Revolutions.

But I do. I mean, I have the original Latin edition. So if it's OK, I can help you with it. Obviously, it doesn't mean I want to translate the whole text (Morin is very tiresome, but this is only my personal opinion), nevertheless, if you need something, I can help you.

L.

Osthanes wrote:

rob wrote:Unfortunately I don't have AG 23: Revolutions.

But I do. I mean, I have the original Latin edition. So if it's OK, I can help you with it.
L.

Sounds good. I began learning (classical)latin a few weeks ago
There is a czech website, the link is on my website. You can read the whole Astrologia Gallica there. I ordered AG 21 and 22 in 1999 or 2000 form London. I could have done the same with 23(and the rest) later but I don't like to pay over the Internet. Somebody already tried to use my bankcard after I bought some things over the Internet with it. The bank called me and told me this.
You should translate it to hungarian, that would be a huge help. If memory serves me AG 22 is already available in hungarian but not 21(However Schwickert: Asztrologiai Szintezis uses it, I am sure that you read it)
Of course sooner or later I will get it.

rob