Display posts from previous
Sort by

145 by Ed F
Martin Gansten wrote:
Eddy wrote:
Primary directions are overrated
I support this. I think that until over a century ago they where the most popular technique simply because they are one of the easiest to calculate prediction techniques in astrology.
You mean as compared to profections, firdaria, transits, and suchlike feats of advanced calculation? :D
Seriously! Maybe they were the "elite" technique because they were so difficult to calculate, and that's also why they fell out of favor. (OK, not that difficult for those of us with math degrees, but you do know what I mean).

Transits are just looking them up in the ephemeris because they can be done for the whole world (assuming geocentric rather than topocentric positions). Primaries cannot be presented for consumption so easily and have to be "customized" by the astrologer.

- Ed

146 by Martin Gansten
Ed F wrote:Seriously! Maybe they were the "elite" technique because they were so difficult to calculate, and that's also why they fell out of favor. (OK, not that difficult for those of us with math degrees, but you do know what I mean).
I haven't got a maths degree, so I know exactly what you mean! :D But Eddy claimed that they were:
one of the easiest to calculate prediction techniques in astrology
which is the reverse of your argument.

147 by Martin Gansten
Eddy wrote:For the primary directions one needs only to apply some napierian formulae with a pocket calculator and voil? one can calculate all directions to high exactness that will occur in a lifetime in just one day's work. Once you have a natal chart (and perhaps the chart of the next day to interpolate when you use secondary motion), then the rest is relatively easy.

Transits (and to a lesser extent the secondary progressions) need a much more advanced mathematics.
But while astrologers from the Middle Ages up to the 19th century did not have pocket calculators, they did have ephemerides (of varying quality). Therefore, as a historical analysis of why primary directions were considered more important than transits, your explanation won't do.

148 by Eddy
Martin Gansten wrote:
Eddy wrote:For the primary directions one needs only to apply some napierian formulae with a pocket calculator and voil? one can calculate all directions to high exactness that will occur in a lifetime in just one day's work. Once you have a natal chart (and perhaps the chart of the next day to interpolate when you use secondary motion), then the rest is relatively easy.

Transits (and to a lesser extent the secondary progressions) need a much more advanced mathematics.
But while astrologers from the Middle Ages up to the 19th century did not have pocket calculators, they did have ephemerides (of varying quality). Therefore, as a historical analysis of why primary directions were considered more important than transits, your explanation won't do.
I wonder how widespread ephemerides there were before bookprint was invented and how many future years they would cover. I believe it was Regiomontanus who made a 32 year ephemeris, and that must have been a huge span of time for those days.

Here http://www.antonblog.net/astrology/prim ... ons-vol-1/ I read that most hellenistic astrologers used calculations based upon the rising times per zodiac sign
the article wrote:Many post-ptolemean Hellenistic astrologers were understanding, that Ptolemean system is much better than Babylonian, but they were not skilled and educated enough to use it. Most of them were common people with more or less common level of education, and trigonometry in that time was a toy for great scholars.

For example, Paulus of Alexandria says in the introduction to his book, that ascensions of Ptolemy are much better than ?according to Egiptians?, and Ptolemean ascensions should be used. But then, over all his book, he never uses this Ptolemean ascensions, he always uses Babylonian system. The same is even in Rhetorius, though he writes in 400 years after Ptolemy. Trigonometry becomes standard astrological tool only in Arabian epoch.
So I assume that till de Arab astrologers, most used this method and had lists of the actual planetary positions of the year, just like one of the most popular ephemeris of the 19th century was 'Raphaels ephemeris of the year ....".

Perhaps transits are now more accessible to the majority and easier because one doesn't have to calculate them for every different latitude, so pragmatism could have played a large role in their popularity. However I wonder if such a pragmatism wouldn't have played such a role as well in the use of pd's some 1500 years ago. I actually don't know how many people before bookprint had ephemerides at their disposal of future 30 years, but I think very few.

149 by Isaac Starkman
Perhaps the example of Clinton isn't representing the power and the effectiveness of PD in Topocentric system. Here is example for Prince Charles; recorded birth time is 9.14 PM UT, rectified to only 22 seconds earlier: 21.13.38 UT:
1. Brother born 10 March 1964
III 120 Jup 2'
III 60 Ura 4'
Moon 0 MC 2'
NN 180 Ven 2'
Jup 90 MC 2'
Jup 0 PAF 6'
2. Severe ankle sprain 10 Nov 1958
Sat 0 III 0'
Ura 45 Asc 1'
Plu 90 SN 1'
3. Appendix attack 11 Feb 1962
XII 180 Mars 4'
4. First solo flight 14 Nov 1966
III 90 Jup 1'
Asc 120 Sun 0'
NN 0 MC 0'
5. Became Prince of Wales 26 July 1958
III 60 Sun 4'
Jup 0 Mars 4'
6. Toured Japan 8 Apr 1970
Mer 180 MC 1'
7. Toured Canada 23 July 1976
MC 0 IX 0'
Nep 120 IX 0'
8. Death of Grandmother 5 Dec 1969
MC 120 Sat 4'
Nep 150 VIII 3'
9. Surgery 23 May 2008
XII 120 Mars 0'
10. Marriage 29 July 1981
Sun 180 MC 10'
V 0 MC 3'

All the above events show the appropriate symbolism with very tight orbs, in many cases with zero orbs. Almost all the aspects are the traditional aspects, 11 out of the 23 aspects are conjunctions and oppositions.
If you Rob or anyone else know of any other primary direction system or any directional system that produce such appropriate aspects with so small orbs I would like to know about it. Of course you can use any other rectified birth time but it must be close enough to the recorded birth time.

150 by rob
Isaac Starkman wrote: If you Rob or anyone else know of any other primary direction system or any directional system that produce such appropriate aspects with so small orbs I would like to know about it. Of course you can use any other rectified birth time but it must be close enough to the recorded birth time.
Hi Isaac,

I have to admit that I have never used the intermediate housecusps in the PDs.
As I already said it is possible that the TPDs are the best but first better astrologers(perhaps Steven) should check the analogy of these PDs(do they mean those things what their corresponding events mean?).
I believe that all the techniques I mentioned before should be used. If somebody told me that the SecDirs are the best then I would also say "no, it can't be, all of these techniques should be used". Profections and Firdaria are also traditional techniques and at least should be checked.
One example: In the radix of one of my relatives the saturn is in Leo in the 9th house quadrat Asc, ruling the second housecusp. This means bad things in connection with the 9th house: very few long journeys, if any at all, and poverty because saturn rules the second house and jupiter is also in exile. It is also possible that Saturn in this chart means that she can't count for good things from her husband's relatives(third house from the 7th).
In the solar saturn returned to the 9th house trigon Asc, I predicted her that she would go abroad. Because of the two analogies: Saturn in 9th and aspect Asc. A few months later she came to me that her boss wanted to send her to London(it was an obligatory). Due to saturn's nature she only spent a few days there and she almost didn't go. Had that been Jupiter or Venus in the 9th instead of saturn: she would have stayed there at least for months.

I could also give many other examples but my and relatives charts are private, so you can't check what I state.

What I am trying to say is that you would immediately convince many people if you or other TPD promoters predict something in anybody's life (before it happens).

rob

151 by Ed F
Martin Gansten wrote: I haven't got a maths degree, so I know exactly what you mean! :D But Eddy claimed that they were:
one of the easiest to calculate prediction techniques in astrology
which is the reverse of your argument.
You missed my irony. ;-)

152 by Atlantean
Hello Rob,

Just two quick points...

Re: Predicting events

Do you remember internet singing sensation, Susan Boyle?

If not, she had a video from Britain's Got Talent that went UNIVERSAL. A tremendous number of views and very much discussion about her and media attention.

In the contest, she was INCREDIBLY the favorite to win. She had the talent, she had the fan-interest...

Isaac specifically went AGAINST common opinion on the matter, based on strong TPD activity and posted well before the event (the Final) that she, in fact, would NOT win.

As it turns out, she did NOT win. The grand prize was given to some dance troupe.

At positive events, there is often an accumulation of telling positive aspects and a lack of negative ones. Likewise, at negative events, the converse.

If we look at Isaac's recent post regarding Prince Charles...

When his Brother was born, the 3rd Cusp trined Jupiter (obviously a once in a lifetime aspect to anyone with less than biblical longevity) and to only scant minutes of arc. SIMULTANEOUSLY, the Moon conjuncted the MC also to just 2' of arc. These are two VERY APPROPRIATE aspects for the event (in this system). These types of seemingly impossible, simultaneous aspects with CORRECT SYMBOLISM and TIGHT ORBS happen often in this system. Again, from a mathematical perspective, the odds AGAINST it happening are phenomenal. Yet, it is a COMMON occurrence in this system.

Look at when Prince Charles became Prince of Wales. Jupiter conjoined Mars, the ruler of his Midheaven to 0? 4'. Surely, we can see the relevance of the symbolism and appreciate the relevance in his chart. Again, this is a once-in-a-lifetime aspect, perfectly symbolically appropriate, AND not only occurring right at the time of the event, but with a specificity of 1/5,400th of a circle. (no sloppy orbs) Please appreciate the odds again AGAINST this happening. ie. the odds AGAINST the correct symbolism MULTIPLIED by the odds AGAINST this once-in-a-lifetime aspect happening with the event MULTIPLIED by the odds AGAINST it being in those few MINUTES of arc.

Prince Charles toured Canada, beginning July 23, 1976. Think of the CHANCES that at that exact same time, his Midheaven would have EXACTLY (not just 0?, but 0? 0') contacted his 9th Cusp. Or think of it in reverse, perhaps...what are the chances that, of all the dates that Charles could have embarked on the tour, he picks when the APPROPRIATE DIRECTION IS EXACT.

The system truly does work! The mathematical odds that are constantly being bested by it doing so are the exclamation point.

As I said before, Rob, sincerely, (no wise ass from me), your software, if it adapts the correct calculation procedures, will be IMMENSELY MORE VALUABLE by including these particular Primary Directions.

Thank you for the consideration...

Peace

Atlantean

153 by rob
Hi Atlantean,

As I said I am not against the TPDs but in my opinions the other techniques should also be used. If I understand it correctly once the 3rd housecusp means brother and later it means honour. This tells me that in the TPDs the intermediate housecusps are like extra Asc and MC (like having 6 Asc and 6 MC or just 1 asc and 11 MCs). That is a huge advantage.

About the prediction: it is one thing to predict that a favourite won't win and another thing if e.g. Clinton will divorce in 2013.03.12.

Since both Clinton's and Prince Charles' charts seem to have exact birthtimes and there is a one-to-one relation between the PDs and events in one's life according to the TPDs(and the PDs are exact), I don't see why can't a prediction be made.

One important thing: an average programer can write a software like mine. It's not a big deal. Any program that can cast a radix, solars, calculate PDs, Secdirs are good. The program is only a tool. It won't make me a better astrologer, just a faster one.
Since the name of this topic is not about the TPDs and not about me :D , No offense meant but I wouldn't like to pollute this topic any more. I'd like to ask you to create a "Topocentric Primary Directions" topic maybe in the Traditional Techniques.
I promise that I will read it.

rob

155 by margherita
Eddy wrote:
So I assume that till de Arab astrologers, most used this method and had lists of the actual planetary positions of the year, just like one of the most popular ephemeris of the 19th century was 'Raphaels ephemeris of the year ....".
well, I think just because linear calculations were quicker than the trigonometrical ones.

I'm not sure that an astrologer could not calculate them because hardly an astrologer could not be an astronomer too. This is possible just with modern astrology...

But in Latin Middle Ages Greek texts were lost for us, and tables entered thank to Arab astronomy.
Still according Bezza Arab tables were based on Ptolemy Handy tables, even if elaborated with Sassanian and Indian additions.

Arab tables were divided into several parts, and only after 1300 the part of primum mobile was separated from the rest.
The most famous of all the ones of Regiomontanus, which wery very easy to use.

With tables (I have for example the ones for the Placidean under the pole) just a subtraction is needed to calculate the required direction.

But a software is another world, I really love Morinus,
margherita
Traditional astrology at
http://heavenastrolabe.wordpress.com

156 by Eddy
Thanks for the historical info Margherita. The Arabians sure added much to the spreading of the knowledge of trigonometry. I'm not sure if every astrologer would have been an astronomer but I do think that every astronomer was expected to do astrology in those days.

I'll stick to the pocket-calculator though, or perhaps I even should use my book with (co)sine tables. I think I'm going to try those formulae of that website I mentioned a few posts ago. Yesterday I found them by chance to illustrate the meaning of my earlier post (so in fact I should thank Martin for his reply) and since the methods of Jean Meeus' books will lead to results that are too exact for my purposes, this will be a good medium way. I think it will take a long time if ever till I'm going to use software, perhaps I'm a bit conservative :) .
!! Read first: forum policies
Recent topics
Post Reply

Return to “News, Notices, Books, Links”