My initial thoughts on this would be that the job would be offered, but the querant would refuse it.

I am essentially in agreement with Goran, except my post makes more about the point which he omits by saying "sextile notwithstanding" - as you will see, this shows that the querent should refuse it, rather than would refuse it.

So if I'm right in understanding this, to simplify this into a 'rule' you might say that planet A likes any planet that is in a sign that planet A has dignity.

I would never recommend that you try to formulate it like that because it is too simplistic and can cause confusion. The nature of the aspect is the most important thing ?a received sextile is completely different to a received opposition.

Going back to my example Sun like Mars because Mars is coming from a place that the Sun has dignity. Mars does not like the Sun becaue the Sun is coming from a place that Mars is debilitated.

Here again, I would have to say that the example is flawed because you cannot rule out the importance of which planet is applying to whom. However, in any situation these two planets are not going to dislike each other because they are related by a friendly, non-hostile aspect; the sextile. So there is no ?disliking? involved here. What is more relevant is the effect that they can have upon each other.

Mars in Leo cannot apply to the Sun in Libra because in that position Mars will be oriental and moving much more slowly than the Sun. So your example would only become real in a situation where the Sun in Libra is the one making the application towards the sextile of Mars in Leo.

The aspect would not be received by Mars because Mars has no essential dignity in Libra (except for a weak rulership over the end terms). Mars is also detrimented in Libra, so if Mars signified the querent, you would want to advise them that the friendly approach from the Solar person who is making pleasant advances, whilst very tempting, is actually leading to a bad influence which will cause damage, upset or sorrow. The Sun, whilst friendly in its relationship, and possibly very much liked by Mars, will bring Mars to its detriment.

Now the worrying thing for Mars, is that the Sun is simultaneously the dispositor of Mars. This means that the Sun is able to ?commit its disposition? to Mars, because it governs the place where Mars is situated. Hence the Sun has a more persuasive influence over Mars in this position - it would probably seem like a more attractive influence than it ought to be, and Mars will find it difficult to ignore this. In a relationship chart the Sun would dominate and Mars would lose its ability to express itself clearly and essentially. So even though Mars is placed in Leo, its association with the Sun would make it act like Mars in Libra.

What your example shows is two separate, but related principles: the lack of reception from Mars to the Sun, but combined with the fact that the Sun can commit disposition to Mars. This is why it is not wise to try to put things into simple formulas. If all the relevant traditional principles are properly understood, it should make perfect sense. Sometimes it takes time, and a lot of thinking things through, for this to happen.

I hope that helps. Unfortunately I don?t have time to answer more questions this week as I have very little opportunity to check the forum. I hope to publish an expansive account of all this soon, with many practical examples, because I think there is a need to place reception back into line with other traditional concepts - of which it is only a part.

Deb

Paul wrote:Ok thanks for all your help (and also Deb and everyone else).

I think I understand reception now! Or at least better than I did!

No need to thank me I'm glad I could help - these days I'm also learning a thing or two about receptions, and this discussion has helped me a lot. That's the wonderful thing about this forum - especially when Deb/Steven drop by and offer their precious little gems of wisdom, like this one from Deb:

In general terms, the planet that is moving most quickly to make the aspect perfect represents the party that has the greatest impulse or motivation to make something happen. But you can't assume that will always be the one with most love either - if the aspect is difficult, this will describe the person who is 'bursting' to have an argument; if the aspect is separating, this will be the one who wants the relationship to end because they "need more space", etc., etc.

I just love it!

PallasAthene wrote: Venus (quesited) is in triplicity of Mars, (querent) but Mars is in no dignity of Venus. So querent loves best? And not the other way round?

Yes/no from anyone would be most helpful.. Thanks.

Wow thanks guys!

A lot of information there!

Obviously time and so on is always an issue, but the 'test examples' that are throughout the site (I'm particularly thinking of the Love Horary examples that are somewhere on here) are particularly useful. I wonder if a Reception Examples page wouldn't be enormously useful also, were time permitting at some future date.

I think I understand the points made, I wasn't aware of the whole 'applying planet' thing being so relevant so, again, perhaps my example wasn't the best one.

To go back a bit further:
Olivia et al said:

The planet that's being received doesn't need dignity to be received, but a planet with no dignity is still - a planet with no dignity. It may not have the ability to take advantage of the receiving planet's help.

I understand the Sun in Libra/Mars in Leo scenario, and I know I probably sound like a broken record, but I still wonder about debilitated planets receiving dignity from its dispositor if its dispositor aspects it and is itself dignified though (as I have mentioned in other recent posts). In that scenario Sun was not dignified. As Hand calls it, "pushing dignity." We always say a debilitated planet can't receive another, but is there really no hope for it? Say Mars in Libra guy is applied to by Venus in Libra gal. Slightly difficult aspect of course, so maybe not the best example, but can he be pushed some strength via the Venus woman?

Bonnati said:

Also [it is the same] if a significator is joined by Venus from Scorpio, from Aries, or from Virgo, or by Jupiter from Capricorn, from Gemini, or from Virgo. And you should understand the major debility of any planet [in the same way]; nor does any aspect prevail unless a reception should intervene which breaks malice.

Deb said:

What we really want to see - and this is where reception becomes extremely useful in relationship matters - is one person's significator applying towards the other by a friendly aspect (indicating an attraction towards joining with the other person) and that aspect being received by the significator that is being applied to (showing that they 'receive' the attention willingly, and respond to it by giving something to it themselves - ie, committing their virtue/disposition to it).

An aspect that breaks malice. Would Venus qualify? Venus has persuasive powers for sure. I know she?s in a sign of Mars? detriment, but she herself has dignity. Would he just attempt to act like Venus in Libra, and basically lose sight of himself? Venus is not exactly a bad influence in her dignity, and is a benefic, so she is unlikely to be harmful. In a practical sense, Venus would teach Mars how to behave properly in romance, when maybe in previous relationships he was just a Mars in Libra with no help. Venus has an applying aspect (conjunction ? questionably friendly) but Mars cannot really give himself. Can Venus ?push? him to commit his virtue when Mars in Libra does not usually do so, or is Mars just afflicted by Venus in Libra because Mars is in his detriment in Libra, as the case with Mars in Leo/Sun in Libra?

from Abu Mashar?s "the abbreviation of the introduction to astrology", ed. and transl. by Burnett, p. 26

30- pushing nature is if the planet A applies to the Lord (B) of the sign in which (A) is, or in its (B?s) exaltation or in its(B?s) term, triplicity or decan: then (A) pushes the nature of the planet B onto it (B).

31 - Pushing power is if the planet A is in its own house or its own exaltation or the other dignities we have mentioned, and applies to another planet (B): then (A) pushes A?s power onto (B).

32 - pushing two natures is of two kinds. One of them is if the planet (A) is in a sign in which it (A) has dignities, and it applies to another (B) which has dignities in it also. For example venus (A) when it applies to Jupiter (B) from pisces. The second kind is if a diurnal planet applies to a diurnal planet and the two are in a diurnal place, of a nocturnal planet applies to a nocturnal planet, and the two are in a nocturnal place.

33- Pushing councel is when a planet applies to a planet from whichever direction the application is: and if this is from friendship or compatibility or with reception, it is favorable; but if this is from antagonism or enmity, it is the opposite of this.

PallasAthene:

I'm looking at a chart where Venus (quesited) is in triplicity of Mars, (querent) but Mars is in no dignity of Venus. So querent loves best? And not the other way round?

Don't forget this here:

Reception requires an aspect, but where there is no aspect the same benefits may be expected, providing the reception is mutual, as Lilly has intimated in his introductory definition.

Are you referring to current Venus in Pisces, Mars in early Leo? Mars has no dignity (peregrine) and is retro, but Venus has exaltation and is combust. They are not in aspect or in mutual reception, so you would more likely be talking generosity. Lack of aspect could bring up the possibility of dislike by one or both party, unlike the sextile example. Besides the lack of aspect, Mars cannot receive Venus because he is lacking in dignity.

If I am getting this right, it would be a little like Sun in Libra/Mars in Leo in the other post, but in reverse. In this case Venus is the swifter planet, and feels something for Mars, by being in a sign of his trip, but Mars would not be good for Venus because he lacks dignity himself and she has no dignity in Leo. She is not an affliction for him, but he may be for her. He would likely not feel much for her, especially since they are in aversion. In this case Mars or Venus don't have a persuasive influence over eachother like in the Sun to Mars example, because no one disposits the other and there's no aspect where someone tries to make something happen. Mars might seem like an attractive influence to Venus though because she is in a place where he has triplicity (like Mars in Leo, Sun governs the place where Mars is - here Venus is in Pisces, so Mars slightly influences the place where Venus is), but he is lacking good qualities that she may not be seeing. She might give nice advances to him that would be rejected, but without an aspect, her attempt might not be much. Although Mars has some influence over Venus, Venus has more influence over herself because exaltation is stronger than triplicity.

Mars is actually moving towards Cancer, approaching Venus, but turns around to go direct soon. Mars is not very trustworthy to hold to any plan, to say the least.

Not sure how old this article is, but it's quite interesting and seems relevant to this discussion:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/perfection.html

Hi Paul

It's the one I wrote recently to help in this discussion. It's been mentioned before but I don't think anyone thought to actually give the link.

Deb

Oh right! Thanks Deb, it's really helpful. I've only rather recently noticed the 'articles' section and just how extensive it is!

I am finding this thread very enlightening.

I have a chart scenario:

Quesited (Lord 7):
Moon at 21 Capricorn (in but within 5 degrees of Ascendant)

Querent (Lord 1):
Saturn at 29 Virgo in 9th

The faster moving planet Moon (Lord 7) is applying by trine to Saturn (Lord 1). Saturn receives the moon. The aspect perfects in the final degree of signs, after moon has crossed the ascendant where it becomes accidently dignified. Following perfection, moon (Lord 7) moves to Aquarius (out of detriment) and Saturn moves to Libra (where it is exalted).

Judging from the posts in this thread, it would appear that the quesited, (the moon as the faster moving planet) likes the querent, who receives their advance, as the aspect is a trine. I thought perhaps Moon in Capricorn in 12th (but on Ascendant) is too debilitated to bring any good, however it is interesting that it does describe the quesited?s physical appearance, profession (male nurse) and place (hospital).

There are other complications to the chart that may perhaps impede the aspect, but Im trying to keep this simple.

Is this similar to Lily?s King and Queen scenario? And have I understood the reception correctly?

Red Shoes

redshoes,

I was hoping someone who understood it better might reply to you, but I'll make an attmpt myself anyway (stipulating that my knowledge of this, as is seen throughout this thread, is basic at best).

Check out this article I linked above that Deb wrote. It includes a table by Bonnatti:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/perfection.html

Moon at 21 Capricorn:
May have triplicity but is in detriment. According to several comments on this forum, a planet in detriment cannot receive another planet.

Saturn at 29 Virgo:
Peregrine

So the querent is the slower moving planet and the questied is coming from a place that the querent has dignity. I would think that this means that the quesited comes easily to the querent who receives what the quesited is offering.
However saturn is about to change sign to the sign of its detriment (though it has term and face for a bit). Let's imagine that the Moon is still in capricorn when this happens - we have mutual reception by detriment (if such things are allowed).

Hi Paul,

Thankyou for taking the time to reply.

From what you wrote it seems that I am almost on the right track now.

Im a bit confused with a couple of bits. I didn't think the moon needed to receive saturn in this case, as the moon is the applying planet being received by saturn by trine. I did wonder if the moon was considered too weak to make the approach in the fist place though, as its in detriment. As John Frawley called Lord 7 in the 1st vulnerable, I am never quite sure how to read that placement.

I dont understand what you mean by mutual reception by detriment, as Saturn will move into exaltation in Libra, not detriment. And the Moon moves into Aquarius, where saturn still receives it into dignity.

Deb's article with the Bonnatti table is very interesting, thankyou.

redshoes