MarkC wrote:However, maybe I have just misinterpreted what the term means in the Greek. Martin are you able to comment any further? I would really like to clear this issue out in my head once and for all.

I have to say right away that I'm no expert either on Greek or on classical Greek astrology. (Margherita has obviously read more than I have on this topic.) But the dictionary meaning of the word may be found here:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... nate%2Fllw
Of course, compilers of dictionaries can't be expected to know every nuance of technical astrological usage of a term, so it is possible (for all I know) that astrological authors did use the word in a wider sense than 'rising at the eastern horizon'. I haven't read enough Greek texts to say.

I don't have the exact quote from Boll but Feraboli teaches Greek at university and spent most of her career on Greek stellar catalogues. If she writes like that, it is SURE in my opinion. Maybe my friend Lucia is going to invite her for her next astrology congress, in the case I will torment her

Please do in the nicest possible way. In the meantime I need to do more reading!

I think I will also raise this question on the Hellenistic part of the ACT Astrology forum and see if Robert Schmidt responds.

The other thing I wonder about about whether these 'Paranatellonta' were always calculated through primary motion or sometimes just projected on to the zodiac. This may not be the pure technique but it would have been a lot easier to calculate. I accept this is not the view proposed by Bezza and CieloeTerra. Still, by the 17th century at least there seems little evidence of astrologers working with in mundo positions of fixed stars at all.

Mark, with your additional informative input on Parans, I think we can conclude any star Paran, especially with our Sun combined with a Natal Planet would have a major symbolic and causative influence on our souls/lives. For example: In my Natal Chart I was born with a partile zodiacal 90 of Sun-Uranus. I have learned and know that partile aspects ?reign supreme;? but, with my Sun (Rising) in Paran formation with my Natal Uranus (Culminating)?Fagan teachings tells me this is the most dominating/potent aspect in my Natal Chart?and it is!. This Natal Paran offers even more potency because it is in formation with the Ascendant and MC?the two most powerful points on any Map.

These mundane connections are very interesting. I first really noticed this in an article by Ken Bowser. I do think tropicalists should be making more use of these mundane aspects. In my own chart I have Jupiter rising ( partile conj) and Mercury on the MC (partile conj). I have spent most of my working life either advising on the law or doing training roles. I have also had a lot of involvement in eastern spirituality. That all seems well reflected in this partile planetary paran in my natal chart.

Mark wrote:
That all seems well reflected in this partile planetary paran in my natal chart.

Indeed! It?s truly amazing how certain Planetary Natal symbolism sets the stage with directions in our lives.

Steve

Steve wrote:It just occurred to me I should post the two chart examples which Robert offered in his essay on Paran Transits. Robert chose these examples by random selection. The only thing both cases had in common was an accurate birthchart and an accurately timed event chart.

...

Robert only uses partile aspects for these two examples. Remember Jim Eshelman?s teachings in his book, ?Interpreting Solar Returns where he says, ?Partile aspects reign supreme.?

The first planet listed is transiting and the second planet listed is natal.

...

The second case is Margaret Eden, who was killed when a train ran over her car.

Birth data: Aug. 17th 1926, 10:20 AM, PST, Long Beach, California
Event data: June 12th, 1950, 7:27 AM, PDT, Fullerton, California

Zodiacal Aspects:
Sun 120 Jupiter -55 minutes
Jupiter 90 Moon +14 minutes
*Both of the above Jupiter zodiacal aspects are not apt symbolism for a death. Also remember Robert chose these two examples randomly from his files.

Paran Transits:
Moon Rising 0 Mars Rising +18 minutes. Another bad Moon Rising.
Moon Setting 180 Saturn Rising -40 minutes
Venus Rising 90 Venus IC -10 minutes
Mars IC 90 Pluto Rising -1 degree
Mars Setting 180 Uranus Rising +40 minutes
Neptune Rising 90 Pluto MC +35 minutes. *Note the apt symbolism with Mars-Pluto & Mars-Uranus.

...

Regards, Steve

Would suggest checking the listed Parans for the Eden's example.

Regards, Bob

Bob wrote:
Would suggest checking the listed Parans for the Eden's example.

Hi Bob, I would not know how to check the listed Parans for Eden?s example unless I had a computer program that allowed me to list the Parans. This is why I started this thread?I was hoping someone knew of a computer program that would list the Paran Transits. Are you implying Hand?s Transiting Paran List for Eden is in error? Do you know of a computer program that will accurately calculate and list Paran Transits?

Regards, Steve

Steve wrote:I would not know how to check the listed Parans for Eden's example unless I had a computer program that allowed me to list the Parans. This is why I started this thread;I was hoping someone knew of a computer program that would list the Paran Transits... Do you know of a computer program that will accurately calculate and list Paran Transits? Regards, Steve

Hi, Steve. You can use my software Riyal. It produces a sorted list like this ("r" is radix, m-a-d-i are the angles. The coordinates are of Fullerton, but when entering the data you can leave the birth coordinates if desired. The times are hour, minute, and tenth's of a minute):

(the list is formatted by columns, but will look a little awkward here, so I'm including a screen image at the end of this post)

RIYAL Mon June 12 1950 UT 14h27m00s Lat33n53 Lon117w56 PARANS

0h05.1 Mar i 6h22.2 Ura m -11h00.2 Nep m -5h37.8 Ura i
0h10.4 Plu ar 7h10.3 Plu mr -10h29.4 Ura d -5h11.7 Nep d
0h59.8 Nep i 7h11.2 Nep a -9h49.7 Plu dr -4h49.7 Plu ir
1h13.7 Ven ar 8h11.5 Ven mr -9h27.5 Mar ir -3h59.2 Mar ar
2h06.9 Mer ar 8h49.0 Mer mr -9h13.1 Ven i -3h58.8 Moo a
2h20.1 Plu a 9h04.2 Mar dr -9h01.3 Moo i -3h50.5 Ven a
2h32.5 Mar mr 9h24.4 Ven d -8h50.6 Ven dr -3h48.5 Ven ir
2h46.9 Ven m 9h28.6 Plu m -8h43.2 Sat mr -3h27.0 Sat dr
2h58.7 Moo m 9h43.5 Jup ir -8h29.0 Mer dr -3h11.0 Mer ir
3h01.6 Jup dr 9h50.2 Sun mr -8h11.8 Mer i -2h57.5 Mer a
3h13.4 Sun ar 9h52.4 Nep mr -7h34.6 Jup ar -2h31.4 Plu i
3h14.9 Nep ar 9h56.2 Moo d -7h33.0 Sun dr -2h24.1 Moo dr
3h16.8 Sat ir 10h00.6 Sat ar -7h32.7 Moo mr -2h16.5 Jup mr
3h48.2 Mer m 10h33.9 Mer d -7h30.1 Nep dr -2h09.8 Sun ir
4h13.5 Jup d 10h40.2 Jup i -7h22.8 Plu d -2h07.6 Nep ir
4h27.3 Moo ir 11h04.8 Sat m -6h53.0 Jup a -1h42.4 Sun a
4h41.9 Sat a 11h18.6 Moo ar -6h35.6 Sun i -1h19.8 Jup m
5h24.4 Sun m -11h58.8 Ura ir -6h32.2 Sat d -0h55.2 Sat i
5h58.2 Ura dr -11h54.9 Mar m -5h55.9 Ura ar -0h46.2 Ura a
6h04.3 Mar a -11h28.9 Sun d -5h54.1 Mar d 0h01.2 Ura mr

Riyal also progresses the solar (both methods) and lunar returns (Bob's method), giving you a detailed view of the hits to the progressed angles day by day.

It is freeware and you can download it here (make sure you read the documentation):

http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/riyal.html

Riyal calculates the transiting parans sidereally (precession-corrected) by default. To calculate them tropically, you have to de-activate the "precession-correction" option. If configured to work sidereally all over (e.g. Fagan/Bradley zodiac), the precession-correction option cannot be de-activated.

About ex-precessing the right ascensions, its is explained in detail here:

http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/essays/sidereal.html
Juan

Thanks Juan! I appreciate and applaud your astronomical/mathematician skills with your program, Riyal. This will allow me to continue my personal research pertaining to, what I consider, sacred astronomical principles (parans) applied to astrology. It may take me awhile to get acclimated with Riyal in order to ask certain follow-up questions. Also thanks to Atlantean and Bob for their input into this thread which brought Juan and his computer program Riyal to my attention. Special thanks to Deb for creating this Forum which allowed me the opportunity to continue my paran research with transiting parans.

Regards, Steve

Steve wrote:

Bob wrote:
Would suggest checking the listed Parans for the Eden's example.

Hi Bob, I would not know how to check the listed Parans for Eden?s example unless I had a computer program that allowed me to list the Parans. This is why I started this thread?I was hoping someone knew of a computer program that would list the Paran Transits. Are you implying Hand?s Transiting Paran List for Eden is in error? Do you know of a computer program that will accurately calculate and list Paran Transits?

Regards, Steve

In fact, 3 of the parans listed for Patricia Hearst did not exist, while 4 of those listed for Ms. Edens were wrong, 2 of them by enormous differences.

The speculum listings with my notes are below.

Bob

Bob wrote:
In fact, 3 of the parans listed for Patricia Hearst did not exist, while 4 of those listed for Ms. Edens were wrong, 2 of them by enormous differences.

What is your take for this discrepancy?

Steve

Hello Steve,

You're welcome! Glad you found what you were looking for!

Hello Juan,

Quick question. How do I get Riyal to show the Radix AND Transit positions (as per your screenshot) when using Parans?

(Maybe there is something that I am not understanding about the functioning of the program...)

Thanks!

Peace

Atlantean

I have no idea where Mr. Hand obtained his data. The largest differences are to be found where he used the Moon to obtain his positions, suggesting that perhaps he used the Moon's position straight from the Noon or Midnight ephemeris rather than computing the timed charts of the events. But that would not explain the huge error in the claim for transit and natal Venus in Ms. Eden's case, so, I just can't explain those claims.

Bob