handn wrote: At the time of the horary Mercury was indeed moving quickly, as was your client, but Mercury and your client changed direction at New Year.


H.

But we have no New Year here- we only have traditional rules of perfection - all planets will eventually change signs or turn retrograde (not the luminaries, of course). if we have an undisturbed application of a planet that will eventually turn retrograde but only after the aspect is perfect and if we take that into consideration, then we should take the fact that the same planet will eventually change signs as relevant too; but those are not the rules of denial. What matters is that the planets can form a partile aspect and that there is no refranation.
Using the shape and the placement of the planets around New Yearmeans using transits and we don't do that in Horary . In order to get a better insight into the circumstances around that time, we'd have to find the orb of the application that fits 4 units of time (4weeks) or 1 unit (one month) but we cannot chase the planets and read the chart by simply following the transits. No traditional (or modern, for that matter) authority suggests that.

I think what puzzles me is why you don't see Mars as capable of being a kind of destroyer in this chart.

Well, because Mercury is separating from it and it will never reach Jupiter. And, at the same time, we have perfection. Yes, i am having trouble seeing a planet that is not a prohibitor as a potential spoiler of the fun.
Of course, i may be wrong.

Mercury didn't 'eventually' turn retro, it turned retro (as did Mars) at approximately the same time the querent changed her mind. That's not insignificant.

This cna only afect her Natal chart- and the change of minf didn't even happen around New Year.
These are transits!
The main significators formed the exact aspect only a few days after the question was propunded but that does not fit the time of her visit - we don't calculate time in that manner.

Well, because Mercury is separating from it and it will never reach Jupiter. And, at the same time, we have perfection. Yes, i am having trouble seeing a planet that is not a prohibitor as a potential spoiler of the fun.

Yes, we definitely had perfection, but what did it bring? Not much, and that is fine considering the two never had a real, substantial contact in the past and she suddenly felt something should happen in the future(he obviously didn't.)
Prohibiting planet doesn't have to prohibit an actual aspect in order to be able to destroy the matter.
Again, angular malefic, influencing all the relevant significators to a different extent definitively spoils the fun. Who else might be the culprit?

cor scorpii wrote:Prohibiting planet doesn't have to prohibit an actual aspect in order to be able to destroy the matter.
Again, angular malefic, influencing all the relevant significators to a different extent definitively spoils the fun.

Well, just for the sake of clarity, I believe that we should not use the term "prohibitor" for a planet that is not actually prohibiting the application of the main significators. An additional malefic influence more likely.
But, it is worth keeping in mind that the Greater Benefic is angular too. Both relevant planets are angular and the Moon is inside the 11th - the strongest house after the angles.
Personally,my prime suspect is actually saturn - it is placed inside the 5th and L7 is disposed by this planet.
But, entitling it to "rule" chart to me looks like neglecting the most important Horary rules.
I agree, there may be an influence that i have overseen, maybe I have misinterpreted some of the signs but we still have many, many beautiful signs that should actually come first.

That said:

Who else might be the culprit?

We still don't know of this road has ended. I might have an impatient client too, as you rightly pointed out in one of your previous posts. or a non promising situation. that's the option B. But with the Moon's future aspects...my brain is boiling, I admit.
Thanks, Goran(e)!

But, entitling it to "rule" chart to me looks like neglecting the most important Horary rules.

I' not saying Mars 'rules' this chart, merely that his influence is very strong and important, not to be overlooked or underestimated - a huge difference since this question was asked in order to find out if there's any potential for positive development between the two people, any harming influence that might present an obstacle(let alone one of such magnitude) would have to be considered. Now which most important rules of horary were specifically neglected? We always have to bear the whole picture in mind - perfection between the main significators is a great thing to start with, but it doesn't tell the whole story.
As for Saturn and his 'harmful' influence...I can't see any, he is just playing a role of a highly dignified dispositor to Jupiter, rejoicing under the horizon with the Sun, oriental(though out of sect - but this applies to Jupiter also!)
Jupiter's significations are, on the other hand,of pretty average strength- a diurnal planet above the horizon in a night chart, occidental which describes an average potential for actions - angularity is not the only way to strengthen a planet. When occidental, superiors tend to be slower in their effects than usual,and being posited in Aquarius - you get the picture, I think.

But, it is worth keeping in mind that the Greater Benefic is angular too.

Yes, but this greater benefic is in a not so great shape; Jupiter is here a significator of the quesited and every significator, whether malefic or benefic, can be attacked and additionally weakened by another planet. Or are you implying that nothing may hurt Jupiter/Venus when they happen to be the significators? I'm sure you aren't, but that's the way it comes across, at least to me. Having Jupiter as a significator of the thing demanded is surely a good/encouraging sign, no doubt about that, but that alone doesn't mean we have nothing else to worry about.

Both relevant planets are angular and the Moon is inside the 11th - the strongest house after the angles.

This is also true, but it only means they are equipped with substantial power to act(other factors being duly considered!).This, in itself, doesn't necessarily say much about the quality of their actions. Moon is peregrine,slow(which makes it equal to a retrograde planet) Mercury in detriment, Jupiter angular regarding a malefic of contrary sect(in short).

77. The 77th is to Consider, Whether the Lord of the Ascendant or Moon be in
Opposition, that is, whether the Moon be in Capricorn, Mercury in Sagittarius or
Pisces, or Venus in Scorpio or Aries, the Sun in Aquarius, Mars in Taurus or Libra,
Jupiter in Gemini or Virgo, Saturn in Cancer or Leo; for then such Lords of the
Question abhor the business; nor does he love it should be accomplished, but is
rather against it.

Since I admire Bonatti very much I'm going to quote some of the 'considerations' he left to us to ponder on.
This one I find rather interesting.
I don?t think we may safely overlook a planet in its detriment, only because we have a love horary question, purportedly showing that querent is interested in quesited or vice versa(Frawley?s concept). The swifter, applying planet and his eventual receptions(or lack thereof) will show us the more ardent one(as in this case, where Mercury is definitely the one wishing something to happen, albeit with an average amount of good will toward the quesited because of the reception by triplicity only; all too quickly, she lost all hope and termed him disinterested). Mercury is in a mutable sign, which doesn?t speak for reliability/stability of querent?s intentions/feelings ? we already know that. An aspect with a planet that is in its own detriment is not a desirable thing for an applied to planet, even if it comes to him from its own domicile, like in this example.
This aspect could also have been cast out of Libra(for instance) by benevolent, strong trine, where Jupiter has a dignity of triplicity, term or face and it would still show that Mercury is interested and that Jupiter is offering him a warm welcome(although in such a case there wouldn?t have to be any reception at all to have a nice perfection).

The 91st Consideration is, To observe in Questions or Nativities, whether Mars be in any of the Angles of the Figure, especially in Fixed Signs; or when Scorpio Ascends, for then he destroys all the good signified by that question, or at least much impedes and diminishes it; Unless Jupiter behold him with a Trine or Sextile; for then his malice is mitigated; but yet as Jupiter is either strong or weak.

This one is relevant to the matter at hand and( I believe) needs no further explanation.

The 18th Consideration, Is to take notice when a planet is in the Angles of the Infortunes, for unless these receive him there, he shall be said to be in an ill condition, and in straits and troubles; as a man on whom some have made an assault; who has many to combat with and none to assist and take his part; or like one that strives against the stream, or falls into a deep pool, and knows not how to swim; and yet by trusting out his hands and feet, may obtain the bank and escape; though this seldom happens. Now a planet is said to be in the Angles of a Malevolent, when the Malevolent or Infortune, viz., Saturn or Mars, is in one sign, and the other Planet in the fourth, seventh or tenth from him: as if Mars be in Aries, and Mercury in Cancer, Libra, or Capricorn, he is said to be in his Angles: understand the like of their Corporal Conjunction. But if there be Reception, he does not afflict; for reception abates all malice, as we have said elsewhere.

This concerns Jupiter, of course.

The 37th Consideration is, To look if the Fortunes are the Significators? Whether the Infortunes behold them with Oppositions or Squares; for that will much lessen their kind effects, and diminish the good they otherwise promised.

Again, this applies to Jupiter.

The 45th is, To consider if the Infortunes are in angles of the Ascendant, that is, in such signs as are in Square or Opposition to the Ascendant, when they afflict any Planet by Square or Opposition; for then they assist so much the worse, and do more mischief, especially if they be in a stronger place than such afflicted Planet; but if they cast only a Trine or a Sextile, it is lessened and the Impediment mitigated.

Although Mars is not in a sign squaring the Ascendant, it is in a mundane square with it being very close to the angle of the earth. Again, this points in the same direction as previously written considerations.

The 50th is ? if a Fortune without Reception, by a Square or Opposition, or an Infortune with a Trine or Sextile without Reception, shall behold the said Lord of the Ascendant, ?tis possible the party maybe delivered from the present danger; but it will be turned into another as great: so that it will not profit him.

Mercury is under such an influence from Mars.

We still don't know of this road has ended

True but the whole point of this tread is to find out how this road will end and it just happens that we have a bit different opinions on this, based upon the reading of this chart
Thanks for the opportunity to refresh my knowledge of horary theory.

Greetings,
Goran

Aglaya,

It is indeed a beautiful horary, and as usual you have been so intense upon the question, and working out about every conceivable angle in our art. I love seeing the querant's lord in the 7th and applying to a good aspect to Jupiter(lord of the house of the matter).

What concerns me on this horary is the 4th of the 7th, the end of the matter. Now someone correct me if this is a Modern technique, as I gleaned it in pages in the distant past, from Anthony Louis's first book upon horary, before he became more absorbed in learning Traditional methods. I only assume he gathered the concept from the Ancient's lore or Modern's who many times misunderstand the teachings of the Ancients or Lilly.

But the 4th of the matter, the horary's 10th, has 14aqu49 upon it, and Saturn is neither recieving nor giving any in orb Ptolemaic aspects. And unless we can somehow stretch Lilly's 5 degree rule a few minutes, I don't know if we can include Jupiter as in cjt to the 10th, the end of the matter's 4th; which would be quite nice. However if this horary is right on in the matters of the minutes in each house cusp, the Midheaven will opposition Mars in less than two degrees.

This to me says they will have a great relationship yet it won't become a lifelong romance or marriage as the cusp of the 4th of the matter's first aspect is in opposition to Mars as the first aspect.

Like I said, I'm not sure if this 4th of the matter factor is from Lilly, not having at least CA II memorized at the moment.

Other than that, I wish most relationship horarys were so positive; I think they will trully become freinds for life and then some regardless if the co-habitation or marriage does not last til the cemetary. :D

Clinton Garrett Soule

The 4th of the matter inquired about, indicating the outcome, is the radical 4th house.

Greetings,
Goran

Thanks Goran,

I had to do a little web searching on Google.com and found as I doubted Louis was that off as he gleaned a lot from Ancients and Lilly used the turned fourth from the matter:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=us

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/william- ... -stone.php

Notice under the third chart:

"The alchemy, as a divine science of the universe, is represented by the 9th house. The querent hopes to reach the perfection in this art, obtaining the final alchemical target, the Philosopher's Stone, which transforms any common metal into gold. This final target is shown in the turned 4th house (end of things) from the 9th (alchemy), which is the radix 12 house whose cusp is in Leo, ruled by the Sun = gold."

Thanks for the prompt, if I understand this correctly Lilly used this from his Philospher's Stone.

Louis had pointed out that the horary's 4th is the end of the matter of the horary question, Not the end of the matter of the quesited!

I.E. note my last 'horary on divorce', as I and the matter are the 7th house, and it's ugly for the turned matter's end(tenth) and the astrologer on that particular horary; as you may have gleaned many great horary artist's are a little upset with me on that one!

Clinton Garrett Soule

thanks for your inputs, both of you, I will write a preply shortly

Hello, Clinton

Thanks for the prompt, if I understand this correctly Lilly used this from his Philospher's Stone.

Well, I have to disagree. The comment about the turned 4th from the 9th is made by Radu, not by Lilly in the original delineation of the chart(Lilly doesn't mention the 4th at all, to be precise).
The ruler of the radical 4th is Mars in Leo, so I would say this placement may also describe gold pretty good.

cor scorpii wrote:The ruler of the radical 4th is Mars in Leo, so I would say this placement may also describe gold pretty good.

I have to postpone writing my answer again, i will add my comments later during the day but I couldn't help but to ask this- do you think that Mars inside Leo could have such symbolics? (I mean, obviously, Leo is gold but I was a bit confused when I saw this mars)!

I'm asking because this is the Quesited's derived 10th and just the other day, the Querent told me that, though they own the antiques shop, the man is actually a jeweller and is specialised in working with golden jewellery (and other objects) and fine mechanics. When she first came up with the the idea of going there, she thought of taking an old valuable penknife but then she changed her mind and picked a piece of jewellery that seemed to be in much worse shape (and, besides, she had been asked by her mother to try to find someone to repair it long time ago).

His ruler is placed inside the radical 10th and disposed by Saturn (both family tradition and old, antique objects) that went into the radical 5th and in the rulership of Venus (both symbolising decorative objects) and, on the other side, we have his derived 10th described by Mars in leo. But, I would have expected Mercury in leo for a fine mechanic or a jeweller. But you're right, they work with lots of sharp objects and use flame a lot.

Hi Aglaya

my comment actually referred to Lilly's horary of 'attaining the philosopher's stone, which Clinton mentioned in the context of the 'end of the matter' controversy (just to make things clear, I'm sure you've already got it)

If he uses sharp objects/fire, that is definitely a Martian kind of work and being posited in Leo...sounds pretty descriptive to me. Somehow I think that any planet posited in Leo might describe working with gold in a way, but that is just how I see it.

cor scorpii said:

Well, I have to disagree. The comment about the turned 4th from the 9th is made by Radu, not by Lilly in the original delineation of the chart(Lilly doesn't mention the 4th at all, to be precise).

I know many Modern authors and many of us Contemporary students of Traditional horary misunderstand concepts from time to time, and it's been Said that a Modern used this 4th of the matter concept, but it's hard for me to believe Radu didn't get it from a pre-1800 source.

In studying CA and the Ancients we may do well to keep an eye out for this concept!

Clinton Garrett Soule