You know this traditions of a degree where a planet is "particularly" exalted, so Venus 27 Piscis, Moon 3 Taurus, etc.

Dont laugh, I am embarked in something funny about memorizing all stars, system of dignities and assorted information with mental imagery and, for me, of course, degree 1 goes from 0 to 59', and so degree 27th is 26 whatever. So for example according to tradition, Venus would be particularly exalted where, at say 26?30, or 27?30 Pisces? I need to make sure about this to locate them in the right place in my mind.

Stupid I know.
Thank you in advance.

Hi and welcome,

The ancients didn't have number zero in their arithmetic (not until the Arabs who took sifr i.e. zero from the Indians and made it famous in the west). So when a modern table shows Moon exalted in 3 degrees Taurus, the ancients would have said Moon is exalted in the 4th degree of Taurus. So, ancients, 4th degree Taurus = modern 3 degrees of Taurus which both mean 3deg 0min 0sec to 3deg 59min 59.99999999...sec.
OK?

The ancients perceive every degree (moira in Greek, Qisma in Arabic which later became Kismet in English!) of the zodiac holds certain fate i.e. the whole degree (and not from the middle of one degree to the middle of another degree). Every whole degree is discrete as every house or place is discrete.

astrojin wrote:. So, ancients, 4th degree Taurus = modern 3 degrees of Taurus which both mean 3deg 0min 0sec to 3deg 59min 59.99999999...sec.
OK?

The ancients perceive every degree (moira in Greek, Qisma in Arabic which later became Kismet in English!) of the zodiac holds certain fate i.e. the whole degree (and not from the middle of one degree to the middle of another degree). Every whole degree is discrete as every house or place is discrete.

Correct idea, wrong execution. Zero was not a number as you correctly pointed out so the first degree of any sign is from 0 to 1, the second degree is from 1 to 2 and the 3rd degree of Taurus is from 2.0 to 2 deg 89 min, 59.9 sec. Modern would think of the point 3.0 as being the exaltation degree. Greek would think of the whole 3rd degree (which is 2.0 - 2.99999 degrees modern).

Hello,

Correct idea, wrong execution.

Wrong understanding. I did not mean that 3 degrees or 4 degrees (or third or fourth degree) Taurus as exaltation degrees of Moon. I was merely explaining the idea of cardinal and ordinal usage of numbers.

Hello Zoidsoft/Curt,

Oh I forgot to mention about your article in your website (the one on judging eminence). It's very interesting indeed! It is a good read though I don't think I agree with the association of ananke to family or lineage. Ananke asociated with Saturn - I agree as both represents necessity but not ananke with family. So, I agree with deriving family status from 4th house (parents) but not with Saturn (maybe Saturn does represent long gone lineage but not immediate class of the parents). I totally agree with delineating the family class first because it tells a lot about the rank of the native born into as this is our anchor to the rank the native will go for. Instead of Saturn, I prefer to use the 4th house the trigon and term lords of the luminaries (as outlined in Liber Hermetis) for determining the class a native is born into.

There are many levels of fate but must we relate each of these different fates to the planets? If the planets are servants to heimarmene/moirae and tuche is derived form the Lots, then why the distinction of Saturn to ananke? If you believe in destiny then, everything is servant to heimarmene...not just the planets. Let me guess, Jupiter is prognoia (foresight that gives providence), Mars is agnoia (ignorance) but at the same time they are servants of heimarmene...

Thank you both for that.
Indeed I took the trouble as I should have in the first place to look at some classic and definitetly of course, they say it with ordinals "thiRD", my silly doubt came from simply watching the figures in the table I am memorizing. If 3?50 would be third, then 2?50 second, 1?50 first, what would be 0?50, "zeroeth"? So that's it, there go my chances to have my ruler of the chart particularly exalted . I am happy too that Moon goes out of where is now Sheratan, that would be uncomfortable.

Btw, can anyone point to some locus in the classics where this is used to some effect? By now, all I mean is in my slighty modified scheme to score planets, give planets in this situation a point more, that is, just as if they would be in their own home.

Or does anyone take it into account at all? Thanks again.

astrojin wrote:Hello Zoidsoft/Curt,

Oh I forgot to mention about your article in your website (the one on judging eminence). It's very interesting indeed! It is a good read though I don't think I agree with the association of ananke to family or lineage. Ananke asociated with Saturn - I agree as both represents necessity but not ananke with family. So, I agree with deriving family status from 4th house (parents) but not with Saturn (maybe Saturn does represent long gone lineage but not immediate class of the parents). I totally agree with delineating the family class first because it tells a lot about the rank of the native born into as this is our anchor to the rank the native will go for. Instead of Saturn, I prefer to use the 4th house the trigon and term lords of the luminaries (as outlined in Liber Hermetis) for determining the class a native is born into.

There are many levels of fate but must we relate each of these different fates to the planets? If the planets are servants to heimarmene/moirae and tuche is derived form the Lots, then why the distinction of Saturn to ananke? If you believe in destiny then, everything is servant to heimarmene...not just the planets. Let me guess, Jupiter is prognoia (foresight that gives providence), Mars is agnoia (ignorance) but at the same time they are servants of heimarmene...

I forgot the reasoning that Schmidt uses for associating Saturn with anangke. It might have been a text source. What I do remember is that anangke represents the "ties that bind" as in family ties. Saturn representing something that is permanent such as family might get the general signification, whereas the 4th gets local determination. In my chart they are the same because of 4th house Aquarius, so maybe I see it that way because of my chart.

As for associations in the 2nd paragraph, the Moon is said to be associated with pronoia and I do think this is in the texts and Saturn is associated with ignorance because its color is black (as opposed to seeing the light - Valens?).

It isn't that simple though. These 1:1 associations do not work really in that simplistic a way because they all bargain politically through the sect and do so differently with each chart.

I am noticing happens aaaall the time. Annoying, stupid. Copy and paste from somewhere in this forum:

"Another occurence of this degree was in a horary chart: the querent described that she had enemies that were harming her - the Descendant was at 19.45 Scorpio. Coincidence ? Maybe. But again ?

It seems to me that the 19th degree is still active, regardless of the slow motion of the fixed stars. It may be something with that degree. What do you say "